NYTimes: "Amex, Challenged by Chase, Is Losing the Snob War"
Apr 18, 2017, 11:25 am
#181
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: HHonors, TrueBlue, Delta SkyMiles, Hyatt Discoverist, Starwood Preferred Guest, American Airlines.
Posts: 2,035
That lag is a very US centric issue. Canadian membership rewards are usable once the transaction posts, no need to even wait for statement to post. Sign-up bonuses post and are usable once the threshold transaction posts (usually. Otherwise wait 8 to 10 weeks for a manual sweep)
Sadly Chase Canada is all but out of the country, down to just one card (Marriott), having sold or discontinued everything else. No ultimate rewards here for the foreseeable future
Sadly Chase Canada is all but out of the country, down to just one card (Marriott), having sold or discontinued everything else. No ultimate rewards here for the foreseeable future
Apr 18, 2017, 11:26 am
#182
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAS, MPL
Programs: DL Platinum, 1 MM
Posts: 1,321
That'll drive signups. But few of those new members will actually keep the card past the first anniversary without compelling rewards points earn rates and easy to use benefits. Chase nailed all of those, with the 100k UR points bonus, benefits that are easy to use, and high rewards points earn rates on categories of spend that Millennials care about: dining and travel. And Amex continues to go down the path toward irrelevance, rolling out yet another annoying to use benefit. You think I actually want to order a cheap lunch from UberEats every MONTH, as opposed to doing maybe 3 dinner orders from nice restaurants over the course of the year? I'll do it, to make it worth paying the AF, but it's really annoying.
Apr 18, 2017, 11:27 am
#183
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
Oh? So long as one spends enough on the CSP to justify the AF on that card, and as at least $300 in travel expenses a year, one will be spending enough to justify the AF on the CSR (only $55 more) based on the increased earn on UR points in travel/dining (1 extra UR point/$). If you do the math, the CSP is only better if you don't have enough travel expenses to use the travel benefit. I don't know very many people who don't spend at least $300 in travel a year.
Probably.
Yes, the Uber offers are easy to use, but it feels like Amex is really only trying to offer these travel discounts in name only- making them more difficult to use than need be.
I really appreciate that Chase lets me decide where to best use my "Travel Credit" at anytime during the year. Yes, I can usually use up my Uber credit, but this month for example, I have almost exclusively been using Lyft. On my CSR, that's no problem burning through the credits, with my Amex credit, it's just another thing I need to watch out for.
I really appreciate that Chase lets me decide where to best use my "Travel Credit" at anytime during the year. Yes, I can usually use up my Uber credit, but this month for example, I have almost exclusively been using Lyft. On my CSR, that's no problem burning through the credits, with my Amex credit, it's just another thing I need to watch out for.
ETA: in the Chase "what counts as travel" thread, there are numerous posts about "loopholes" such as airline gift cards, MPX, etc qualifying as "travel". Why is that? Perhaps ppl don't spend $300 on "travel" annually?
Last edited by Troopers; Apr 18, 2017 at 11:40 am
Apr 18, 2017, 11:48 am
#184
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: US
Programs: (PM)AA SPG (Marriott), Hilton
Posts: 1,040
They are more they same than not
TLDR: American Express has more in common with their competitors than not.
Not specific to AX; Chase, Citi, all the rest have to count their pennies.
I think it's about 50-50 pay-off vs carries a balance.
They do offer credit cards where you can carry a balance, and pay-over-time allows it on charge cards. http://secure.marketwatch.com/invest...AXP/financials See also http://secure.marketwatch.com/invest...k/V/financials and http://secure.marketwatch.com/invest.../MA/financials
This isn't a complete comparison, it is some indicator of how AX compares to VS and MC.
Unlike 'those credit companies' AX doesn't have to share. They are the issuer and acquirer.
Not unique to AX.
Not unique to AX, but 'sub-optimal' doesn't play here. You may value what you get for travel. Someone else may value gift cards.
Oddly enough, VS seems to have a worse reputation for purchase protection than AX. Within reason, with AX, you call, they credit. With VS, the reports are you need to file paperwork and the process is a lot longer. On the other side, the CSR travel credit benefit seems to be more useful than the AXP travel benefits which are tied to Uber and an Airline. Other cards seem to fall in the middle, such as those that offer/have offered comparable credits but on any airline, just airlines.
These would be carried on the balance sheet as a liability. If they wanted to force breakage, they would expire the points. If the didn't want them to be used at all, they wouldn't keep popping up messages on the web page or sending emails reminding card holders they have points to use.
Or they see it as a veblen good. This would be directly on-point in 'snob wars', if they want to be the most expensive card in the class. If you compare the CSR to the AXP as travel cards, it's more utilitarian and probably more germane to the comments in this thread vs the headliner of 'snob' wars.
With a number of credit card offerings, no need to do this. If you surveyed AX card holders on FT, I'd guess many have a mix of charge and credit products, excluding any corporate cards issued. All AX charge cards have a fee, some of their credit cards do not.
Agreed. They defer these. They defer these until the bill is paid. You can jump a hoop and get them posted immediately if you need them quicker. Many other card issuers do post immediately.
Is this universally different than anyone else including the airlines?
Balance statements above suggest no rock, no hard place, just a corporation like VS and MC and Citi, Chase, et. al. scrambling for market share.
Changes in fees and benefits has been happening with all card issuers for a while. it's not new.
Chase, for example, dropped the 7% UR pts and 3X dining [Fridays] on the CSP. They also changed the AZ UR purchase from 1p to 1.25p, although you can still get a AZ GC for 1cpm via UR. Citi's $495 card changed the benefits after.
There are a few specific differences between AX and MC/VS or AX and Citi/Chase/Barclays/etc. But they probably have way more in common.
Most credit card companies mainly make money off interest from the large number of customers who don't pay their bills in full.
Unlike those credit companies, AmEx gets their revenue mainly from annual fees and interchange fees.
This isn't a complete comparison, it is some indicator of how AX compares to VS and MC.
Unlike 'those credit companies' AX doesn't have to share. They are the issuer and acquirer.
Many customers choose to not take full advantage of the benefits their cards offer them, but they still pay the annual fee.
Second, many customers either don't redeem their rewards or redeem at suboptimal value.
Anything AmEx can do to make the customers not use their benefits or rewards means more money in AmEx's pockets.
... and never bothering to redeem any of the points they accumulate.
... they increased the annual fee on the Plat because they have no choice.
Second, they also started to push their Pay Over Time feature to try to get some interest out of their client base.
Hoops: Delayed rewards point posting
Excise fees on miles redemptions
AmEx is between a rock and a hard place.
Without major changes, they can only keep increasing the annual fees and decreasing the benefits, which certainly won't entice new customer to signup for their products.
Chase, for example, dropped the 7% UR pts and 3X dining [Fridays] on the CSP. They also changed the AZ UR purchase from 1p to 1.25p, although you can still get a AZ GC for 1cpm via UR. Citi's $495 card changed the benefits after.
There are a few specific differences between AX and MC/VS or AX and Citi/Chase/Barclays/etc. But they probably have way more in common.
Apr 18, 2017, 12:59 pm
#185
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: SFO
Programs: Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold, IHG Plat
Posts: 756
Well venmo is part of the culprit here too. The fact that it charges 3% to pay people with cc gives some of the less knowledgeable kids the false impression that just using cc anywhere might result in extra hidden fees.
Amex plat was always coveted for the 100k bonus, just like the CSR. Only reason to keep the plat after the first year is if you can justify if you travel enough to enjoy the benefits. Given that Amex is throwing 20-30k retention bonuses this year after they raised the AF, I most likely will be keeping it.
Unlike competitors, Amex does not have consumer bank services to leverage for profitability and brand exposure. Chase willingly took that $300m hit to the balance sheet for the 100k signup bonus in exchange for signing up 1mil high income customers (avg CSR holder has like $132k household income). They are betting they can sell checking and mortgages as well, and so far it seems to have worked.
Meanwhile, Amex lost a like 5-10% of their cardholders when Costco left to Citi. They also lost Fidelity, which has unlimited 2% earnings just like Citi DoubleCash. Now that the Marriott/SPG merger is finished, there might not be an SPG card anymore next year once the programs merge. This probably means all existing cardholders will be reissued a Chase Marriott card.
So to look at previous balance sheets and claim it's just business as usual for Amex is not really a good argument, because they aren't adapting fast enough to increasing competition and their portfolio of cards is shrinking.
I'm a millennial. I won't sign up for the platinum card for these reasons:
I don't take Uber, I don't have a Centurion lounge close by, and the perks of the card aren't good enough to outweigh the annual fee. I don't care about a concierge or any of that 1980s pre-internet technology. It's not even a really a card to "use" as the reward earnings are terrible.
My Sapphire Reserve is a better card because I can use the travel expense on whatever codes as travel, and also Chase UR points are WAY easier to use. They can be used for simple cash, or used for travel expenses at a higher value.
One thing that's super annoying about AMEX is all of the limitations. They limit which airline you can use the fee with, they limit transactions on the Everyday cards. So annoying! Why can't they come out with a standard 1.5 or 2% cash back card, then have the Platinum card match the Sapphire Reserve categories? Maybe do 3 or 4% back on travel and restaurants with a $300 yearly travel credit that can be used for anything travel related. Only then will I consider switching my primary spending to AMEX.
Currently, the only market that AMEX seems to dominate is grocery stores. And this is pretty much the only time I use my AMEX.
I don't take Uber, I don't have a Centurion lounge close by, and the perks of the card aren't good enough to outweigh the annual fee. I don't care about a concierge or any of that 1980s pre-internet technology. It's not even a really a card to "use" as the reward earnings are terrible.
My Sapphire Reserve is a better card because I can use the travel expense on whatever codes as travel, and also Chase UR points are WAY easier to use. They can be used for simple cash, or used for travel expenses at a higher value.
One thing that's super annoying about AMEX is all of the limitations. They limit which airline you can use the fee with, they limit transactions on the Everyday cards. So annoying! Why can't they come out with a standard 1.5 or 2% cash back card, then have the Platinum card match the Sapphire Reserve categories? Maybe do 3 or 4% back on travel and restaurants with a $300 yearly travel credit that can be used for anything travel related. Only then will I consider switching my primary spending to AMEX.
Currently, the only market that AMEX seems to dominate is grocery stores. And this is pretty much the only time I use my AMEX.
TLDR: American Express has more in common with their competitors than not.
Not specific to AX; Chase, Citi, all the rest have to count their pennies.
I think it's about 50-50 pay-off vs carries a balance.
They do offer credit cards where you can carry a balance, and pay-over-time allows it on charge cards. http://secure.marketwatch.com/invest...AXP/financials See also http://secure.marketwatch.com/invest...k/V/financials and http://secure.marketwatch.com/invest.../MA/financials
This isn't a complete comparison, it is some indicator of how AX compares to VS and MC.
Balance statements above suggest no rock, no hard place, just a corporation like VS and MC and Citi, Chase, et. al. scrambling for market share.
Not specific to AX; Chase, Citi, all the rest have to count their pennies.
I think it's about 50-50 pay-off vs carries a balance.
They do offer credit cards where you can carry a balance, and pay-over-time allows it on charge cards. http://secure.marketwatch.com/invest...AXP/financials See also http://secure.marketwatch.com/invest...k/V/financials and http://secure.marketwatch.com/invest.../MA/financials
This isn't a complete comparison, it is some indicator of how AX compares to VS and MC.
Balance statements above suggest no rock, no hard place, just a corporation like VS and MC and Citi, Chase, et. al. scrambling for market share.
Meanwhile, Amex lost a like 5-10% of their cardholders when Costco left to Citi. They also lost Fidelity, which has unlimited 2% earnings just like Citi DoubleCash. Now that the Marriott/SPG merger is finished, there might not be an SPG card anymore next year once the programs merge. This probably means all existing cardholders will be reissued a Chase Marriott card.
So to look at previous balance sheets and claim it's just business as usual for Amex is not really a good argument, because they aren't adapting fast enough to increasing competition and their portfolio of cards is shrinking.
Apr 18, 2017, 2:40 pm
#186
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
One difference is that Amex does not require a card with an annual fee to fully utilize MR. Chase requires a card with an annual to fully utilize UR.
Apr 18, 2017, 4:00 pm
#187
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: LIT
Programs: Blinged Out
Posts: 716
I'm a millennial (barely) and like both the CSR and AMEX BPlat.
Both fit my needs.
That being said, AMEX seems to try harder to keep my spend flowing their way given their recent targeted offers (2x points versus 1.5x points over $5K single purchase and 60K bonus MR points for $220K spend in a quarter, etc...)
The UR Shopping portal is awful - I may get credited 25% of the time on conforming purchases.
AMEX customer service has been top-notch any time I've called.
Both have a place, but AMEX seems to target the higher-spend clients far better than CSR. CSR is showy, but it's more of a churner's card. AMEX BPlat paired with Personal PRG is my weapon of choice anywhere that takes them.
I would much rather have a higher MR Points balance than UR points given the flexibility on the pay with points feature and the 2c value per...
Both fit my needs.
That being said, AMEX seems to try harder to keep my spend flowing their way given their recent targeted offers (2x points versus 1.5x points over $5K single purchase and 60K bonus MR points for $220K spend in a quarter, etc...)
The UR Shopping portal is awful - I may get credited 25% of the time on conforming purchases.
AMEX customer service has been top-notch any time I've called.
Both have a place, but AMEX seems to target the higher-spend clients far better than CSR. CSR is showy, but it's more of a churner's card. AMEX BPlat paired with Personal PRG is my weapon of choice anywhere that takes them.
I would much rather have a higher MR Points balance than UR points given the flexibility on the pay with points feature and the 2c value per...
Apr 18, 2017, 4:25 pm
#188
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: IAH
Programs: DL DM, Hyatt Ist-iest, Stariott Platinum, Hilton Diamond
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It's a lot easier to keep a $99 AF United or Delta card out of inertia, a $450 AF is not an insignificant fee for most consumeRS. Imo.
And I know it's effectively $150 fee for most of us who organically use the travel credit, so many people failed to use it at all last year. Go look for all the pissed off people who were shocked they began using their 2017 credit in 2016 because they didn't realize Chase went by statement date, not calendar date.
And I know it's effectively $150 fee for most of us who organically use the travel credit, so many people failed to use it at all last year. Go look for all the pissed off people who were shocked they began using their 2017 credit in 2016 because they didn't realize Chase went by statement date, not calendar date.
Apr 18, 2017, 4:35 pm
#189
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 401
Doing the above means a $150 AF. So in the second year of cardholdership, you only need to account for a $55 difference. If someone spent more than $551 on dining a year (~$46/month), then they would come out ahead over the CSP.
Apr 19, 2017, 5:28 am
#190
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ATL
Posts: 802
I do agree with you there, though. AMEX is old school, but I do like their superior dispute resolution, and they don't have a 5/24 rule which disqualifies me from getting any of their Ultimate Rewards cards.
I ordered Pizza Hut and they did anything they could to not make me happy... Ignored me on social media, false advertised, said the oven wasn't up to the proper temp so the order would be delayed, etc.
In the end I got my $17.80 back no questions asked.
I ordered Pizza Hut and they did anything they could to not make me happy... Ignored me on social media, false advertised, said the oven wasn't up to the proper temp so the order would be delayed, etc.
In the end I got my $17.80 back no questions asked.
I just got a dispute $7.59 credit from Amex which posted as permanent almost immediately.
Apr 19, 2017, 5:33 am
#191
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ATL
Posts: 802
It's a lot easier to keep a $99 AF United or Delta card out of inertia, a $450 AF is not an insignificant fee for most consumeRS. Imo.
And I know it's effectively $150 fee for most of us who organically use the travel credit, so many people failed to use it at all last year. Go look for all the pissed off people who were shocked they began using their 2017 credit in 2016 because they didn't realize Chase went by statement date, not calendar date.
And I know it's effectively $150 fee for most of us who organically use the travel credit, so many people failed to use it at all last year. Go look for all the pissed off people who were shocked they began using their 2017 credit in 2016 because they didn't realize Chase went by statement date, not calendar date.
My best friend is in that camp. I stayed on him constantly about using up that credit and explained how to do it. Instead he sat on it until the last day of his statement and did not get the credit since it was pending, not posted. Then I had a helluva time trying to explain to him
why he did not get the credit.
Apr 19, 2017, 6:59 pm
#192
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: HHonors, TrueBlue, Delta SkyMiles, Hyatt Discoverist, Starwood Preferred Guest, American Airlines.
Posts: 2,035
If it were any other pizza place I would've been okay with what they did, but since Pizza Hut treats their customers like garbage while selling overpriced Pizza, I didn't care. $21 for a stuffed crust with pepperoni? Seriously? Then they had the kahunas to advertise 50% off when they raised the price by 50% anyways.
Apr 19, 2017, 7:44 pm
#193
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2000
Location: أمريكا
Posts: 26,763
For me, the AmEx changes result in the card costing me net $150, without much jumping through of hoops. That's before the $20/year Global Entry benefit, AmEx offers ($275 organic savings last year), and the other benefits.
So keeping the card is not much of a question for me, but whether to use it is a different story. Two changes that would make a difference in how often I use the card are are travel delay protection and extra points for dining.
So keeping the card is not much of a question for me, but whether to use it is a different story. Two changes that would make a difference in how often I use the card are are travel delay protection and extra points for dining.
Apr 19, 2017, 8:57 pm
#195
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: IAH
Programs: DL DM, Hyatt Ist-iest, Stariott Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 12,792
You're off by a decimal place here. To make back the $55 difference on the 1x differential between CSP and CSR, you'd have to spend $5500, not $551.