[OFFER DEAD, MR accounts frozen, some bonuses clawed back] 100k Amex Plat (USA)
Aug 20, 2016, 7:55 am
#721
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,269
They removed the 100K from my MR account two days ago. I noticed it yesterday and initiated a chat with a rep. He said it was because of returns, but that was false. I spent the $3,000 on Delta tickets for myself and friends and we flew the flights. This was natural spend that I was going to making anyway on some card, and chose this one (passing up using a much more lucrative one for air tickets) to meet the terms of the enrollment bonus. He then acknowledged it wasn't because of returns, and observed that upon checking he saw that others had the same problem. He said he referred it for investigation and I should know the results within 6-8 weeks, but probably sooner.
As a data point, I had an open Ameriprise Platinum card at the time I applied for this one in May. But the Ameriprise version has no enrollment bonus, so I had never received an enrollment bonus on the AMEX Platinum previously. I subsequently canceled the Ameriprise card when its fee became due.
I think it would have been fair for AMEX not to have approved me for the new card due to the open account if that's their policy, or any consideration about the amount of credit they were extending me, but to come back three months later and pull the points after I've met the terms isn't right. I'm waiting to see how this works out.
As a data point, I had an open Ameriprise Platinum card at the time I applied for this one in May. But the Ameriprise version has no enrollment bonus, so I had never received an enrollment bonus on the AMEX Platinum previously. I subsequently canceled the Ameriprise card when its fee became due.
I think it would have been fair for AMEX not to have approved me for the new card due to the open account if that's their policy, or any consideration about the amount of credit they were extending me, but to come back three months later and pull the points after I've met the terms isn't right. I'm waiting to see how this works out.
See post 705 and also post 691. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/27090239-post705.html
Last edited by LWT3; Aug 20, 2016 at 8:14 am
Aug 20, 2016, 8:27 am
#722
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 40
There is a recent post in this thread from someone who also had their points clawed back because they had another platinum card. He objected on the grounds that it was a different type of platinum card / different product. I think this is mia's point about Amex bringing policy and practice closer together. Amex appears to be taking the position that they have the right to treat all platinum cards as the same for purposes of awarding a bonus. And even if you didn't get a bonus for your ameriprise plat, that doesn't take you out of the scope of the T&C.
See post 705 and also post 691. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/27090239-post705.html
See post 705 and also post 691. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/27090239-post705.html
Aug 20, 2016, 8:34 am
#723
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,710
First sentence of the offer
"Welcome bonus offer not available to applicants who have or have had this product."
That seems to give Amex some latitude. It seems that Amex may now be considering different flavors of Plat the same product. I really don't think the person reviewing the account screwed up because I think Amex is doing everything they thing they can to legally get out of this offer but yes I think it might be worth contesting it that is the reason for your clawback.
"Welcome bonus offer not available to applicants who have or have had this product."
That seems to give Amex some latitude. It seems that Amex may now be considering different flavors of Plat the same product. I really don't think the person reviewing the account screwed up because I think Amex is doing everything they thing they can to legally get out of this offer but yes I think it might be worth contesting it that is the reason for your clawback.
Aug 20, 2016, 8:40 am
#724
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
Did you get written confirmation from Amex that the Platinum offer (in May) is a different product than the Platinum by Ameriprise PRIOR to applying for the Platinum in May?
If not, the fact that a rep confirmed that the two cards are different AFTER applying for the card, receiving 100k bonus, canceling the card and the clawback doesn't really matter. The rep was wrong but you did not rely on the rep to apply for the card and the bonus (since it was AFTER the clawback).
State what?
If not, the fact that a rep confirmed that the two cards are different AFTER applying for the card, receiving 100k bonus, canceling the card and the clawback doesn't really matter. The rep was wrong but you did not rely on the rep to apply for the card and the bonus (since it was AFTER the clawback).
State what?
Aug 20, 2016, 8:43 am
#725
Join Date: Nov 2010
Programs: Enough
Posts: 961
First sentence of the offer
"Welcome bonus offer not available to applicants who have or have had this product."
That seems to give Amex some latitude. It seems that Amex may now be considering different flavors of Plat the same product. I really don't think the person reviewing the account screwed up because I think Amex is doing everything they thing they can to legally get out of this offer but yes I think it might be worth contesting it that is the reason for your clawback.
"Welcome bonus offer not available to applicants who have or have had this product."
That seems to give Amex some latitude. It seems that Amex may now be considering different flavors of Plat the same product. I really don't think the person reviewing the account screwed up because I think Amex is doing everything they thing they can to legally get out of this offer but yes I think it might be worth contesting it that is the reason for your clawback.
By providing the written response to my CFPB complaint re: currently holding an Amex Plat Ameriprise, I think Amex has shot themselves in the foot. If they try to change their reasoning, that would be bad-faith. All I have to argue is that I received written confirmation from Amex that they're different products for welcome bonus purposes, and to look at Amex's prior behavior. I'm waiting on their response to my updated CFPB complaint, and if that fails, I'm confident I'll prevail at mediation/arbitration.
Did you get written confirmation from Amex that the Platinum offer (in May) is a different product than the Platinum by Ameriprise PRIOR to applying for the Platinum in May?
If not, the fact that a rep confirmed that the two cards are different AFTER applying for the card, receiving 100k bonus, canceling the card and the clawback doesn't really matter. The rep was wrong but you did not rely on the rep to apply for the card and the bonus (since it was AFTER the clawback).
If not, the fact that a rep confirmed that the two cards are different AFTER applying for the card, receiving 100k bonus, canceling the card and the clawback doesn't really matter. The rep was wrong but you did not rely on the rep to apply for the card and the bonus (since it was AFTER the clawback).
Last edited by durberville; Aug 20, 2016 at 8:51 am
Aug 20, 2016, 9:31 am
#726
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 40
That each different platinum card is considered the same or vice versa in the terms and I have had multipole reps confirm that each card is a different product even thought they're in the same family. and sums it up well http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/27092734-post725.html
Aug 20, 2016, 9:39 am
#727
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,269
It doesn't really. The cards have different names, and indeed, have a different physical appearance (one has an Ameriprise logo, while the other doesn't). In my case, I have a captured written conversation with American Express confirming that: (a) the currently held card is an AMEX Plat Ameriprise, and; (b) the AMEX Plat Ameriprise card and the regular AMEX Plat are indeed two different products, including for welcome-bonus purposes. We can also discuss the rule of contra proferentem, where ambiguity in contract is read against the drafter.
By providing the written response to my CFPB complaint re: currently holding an Amex Plat Ameriprise, I think Amex has shot themselves in the foot. If they try to change their reasoning, that would be bad-faith. All I have to argue is that I received written confirmation from Amex that they're different products for welcome bonus purposes, and to look at Amex's prior behavior. I'm waiting on their response to my updated CFPB complaint, and if that fails, I'm confident I'll prevail at mediation/arbitration.
Nope, but it's certainly compelling evidence. Further, I can easily point to prior conduct. Finally, the fact that points were deposited and then removed some while later is also compelling.
By providing the written response to my CFPB complaint re: currently holding an Amex Plat Ameriprise, I think Amex has shot themselves in the foot. If they try to change their reasoning, that would be bad-faith. All I have to argue is that I received written confirmation from Amex that they're different products for welcome bonus purposes, and to look at Amex's prior behavior. I'm waiting on their response to my updated CFPB complaint, and if that fails, I'm confident I'll prevail at mediation/arbitration.
Nope, but it's certainly compelling evidence. Further, I can easily point to prior conduct. Finally, the fact that points were deposited and then removed some while later is also compelling.
Aug 20, 2016, 10:19 am
#728
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Georgia
Programs: DL DM/2MM
Posts: 1,037
Did you get written confirmation from Amex that the Platinum offer (in May) is a different product than the Platinum by Ameriprise PRIOR to applying for the Platinum in May?
If not, the fact that a rep confirmed that the two cards are different AFTER applying for the card, receiving 100k bonus, canceling the card and the clawback doesn't really matter. The rep was wrong but you did not rely on the rep to apply for the card and the bonus (since it was AFTER the clawback).
State what?
If not, the fact that a rep confirmed that the two cards are different AFTER applying for the card, receiving 100k bonus, canceling the card and the clawback doesn't really matter. The rep was wrong but you did not rely on the rep to apply for the card and the bonus (since it was AFTER the clawback).
State what?
Aug 20, 2016, 10:24 am
#729
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Georgia
Programs: DL DM/2MM
Posts: 1,037
Actually, it could bar them. This is a basic tenet of contract law. For instance, failure to defend a copyright, trademark, or patent can result in the loss of the intellectual property. Failure to file a lawsuit in a timely manner can result in the lawsuit being dismissed. Precedent is very important when adjudicating disputes.
Aug 20, 2016, 10:25 am
#730
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 283
I'm not saying you won't prevail, but your level of confidence seems way too high. Someone at the CFPB is going to ask themselves whether someone with two Platinum cards is covered by the "have or have had" language. I don't think a response from a CSR making $10/hour or whatever is going to be dispositive and neither is prior conduct. Failure by Amex to enforce a right they've reserved in the T&C in the past doesn't bar them from enforcing it in the future.
Aug 20, 2016, 10:31 am
#731
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Georgia
Programs: DL DM/2MM
Posts: 1,037
Agreed. It seems AmEx is seeking out particular behaviors, and they've focused on this offer because it's a sample of their customers who are particularly prone to engage in those behaviors (statistically speaking).
Aug 20, 2016, 10:48 am
#732
Join Date: Nov 2010
Programs: Enough
Posts: 961
In this case, it could be argued that consistent prior conduct contributed to reasonable expectations. Regardless, the weight of evidence even without prior conduct is sufficiently compelling: a written statement by an agent of the corporation; the fact that the Ameriprise and regular platinum look physically different; the fact that the names of the cards are different; the fact that points were awarded and then taken away, and; the fact that the Ameriprise card can't be accessed on the regular Amex website.
If you want to argue that there's sufficient ambiguity or leniency in the terms to allow for Amex's interpretation, you have to remember the rule of contra proferentem, that where there is ambiguity in a contract of adhesion (such as a credit agreement), that ambiguity must be read in favour of the person who did not draft the contract. So unless Amex expressly states that the Ameriprise card is the same product, any reading would be relying on ambiguous terms, which would have to be read in my favour.
Aug 20, 2016, 12:06 pm
#733
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 736
Meh, 100k points taken from me. Previously got the Ameriprise Platinum when it had 25k points but as noted this had previously been treated as a separate product. ........ move.
MR balance is now -85k because I had transferred points out and had booked flights with the points.
I guess at this point there's no reason for me to get any additional MR cards because that balance will just be a black hole.
Any datapoints of Amex clawing back the points from the party transferred to? I booked flights already, so I want to make sure my flights are safe.
Spent about $4k on the card, zero MS. Also, absolutely $0 in credits on this card - no Amex offers and no airline credit used yet.
MR balance is now -85k because I had transferred points out and had booked flights with the points.
I guess at this point there's no reason for me to get any additional MR cards because that balance will just be a black hole.
Any datapoints of Amex clawing back the points from the party transferred to? I booked flights already, so I want to make sure my flights are safe.
Spent about $4k on the card, zero MS. Also, absolutely $0 in credits on this card - no Amex offers and no airline credit used yet.
Last edited by Willbur; Aug 20, 2016 at 3:04 pm