AA Penalty for Selling My AA Miles
Aug 15, 2019, 11:01 am
#181
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,439
Aug 15, 2019, 11:05 am
#182
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
Now you are probably correct if a person somehow got an email or saw something in a online ad about buying miles at what they thought was a cheap price and dont fly much or have an FF acct, and is out of the loop about these things will probably Google it. No different then say MSing, I doubt many folks came up with the idea simply on their own w/o any other input, most ran across it or heard about it on the news or read about it in the news , its not illegal to buy a GC then go get an MO but it is against Wallys and most places that sell MOs to use a GC for this purpose.
Personally I HATE the brokers and Bloggers arent far behind, butIhow many people do you know that read every single word of AAs T&Cs. I understand its there and AA can fall back on that, I just think as long as AA still goes out and trys to rip people off by giving them the impression that buying their miles will get them free tkts anytime anywhere is just Wrong. Dont get me started on the FAs pitch for the Barclays AA card and how they will get 60k and beable to fly roundtrip to Europe or Hawaii whenever they want
Aug 15, 2019, 11:18 am
#183
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: DCA
Programs: DL DM, AA EXP, various hotel
Posts: 2,227
The T&Cs clearly state: "Accrued mileage credit and award tickets do not constitute property of the member."
That's not legalize - that's plain English.
AA makes all of this easily available: https://www.aa.com/i18n/aadvantage-p...conditions.jsp
There's no ambiguity here. AA's not hiding these restrictions and policies.
That's not legalize - that's plain English.
AA makes all of this easily available: https://www.aa.com/i18n/aadvantage-p...conditions.jsp
There's no ambiguity here. AA's not hiding these restrictions and policies.
Not saying you're wrong about your larger point, but basically anything in the terms and conditions is intended for legal enforcement, not customer knowledge.
Aug 15, 2019, 11:48 am
#185
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: DEN
Programs: AA EXP, AA Million Miles, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,586
Have you ever rented a car? Can you honestly say you read all the print on the back of the contract. I havent and thankfully its hasnt come into play, but I know a number of people who were left holding the bag when the rental company referred to something that they agreed to that was printed on the back of the contract by signing the contact
I will admit to never having read ALL the T&Cs of not only AA but all Carriers, Hotel and car rental programs
I will admit to never having read ALL the T&Cs of not only AA but all Carriers, Hotel and car rental programs
So your argument is: Company makes a disclosure statement of it's terms and conditions available. Customer is to too lazy or complacent to read it. Therefore customer should get a reprieve when they willingly decide to violate those terms.
Sorry, nope, that doesn't fly.
To me the phrase "legalese" means a statement written in complex and convoluted legal terms that make it hard for a layperson to understand.
" Accrued mileage credit and award tickets do not constitute property of the member" is not a complex and convoluted statement. It's a clear and direct statement.
Aug 15, 2019, 12:07 pm
#186
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: SAN
Programs: AA CK, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 839
I'll even defend the "common sense" around prohibiting the buying/selling of miles.
If an airline openly permitted this, their program would quickly become unrewarding to honest members. Think about any ticketing venue that takes no actions to reduce the impact of brokers, touts, bots, etc. You quickly learn to hate it, hate the process, and ultimately hate the underlying brand. If an airline *didn't* aggressively take down mileage brokers, those brokers would exploit the exact areas of the program where we most want to redeem awards - the best international J/F partners. Why? Because that's where the value is. Airlines might react by raising the redemption levels so high that there's no value arbitrage to be had, or just tighten availability to the point where hardly any seats exist to begin with. Either way, the rest of us are hosed.
It's already hard enough to get these seats just competing with other honest members. It's common sense that the airlines want their FFP to be a positive asset, not something with the toxic public image of Ticketmaster. Thus, it's in their interest to ban the brokers and devote some effort into blocking them wherever they pop up.
If an airline openly permitted this, their program would quickly become unrewarding to honest members. Think about any ticketing venue that takes no actions to reduce the impact of brokers, touts, bots, etc. You quickly learn to hate it, hate the process, and ultimately hate the underlying brand. If an airline *didn't* aggressively take down mileage brokers, those brokers would exploit the exact areas of the program where we most want to redeem awards - the best international J/F partners. Why? Because that's where the value is. Airlines might react by raising the redemption levels so high that there's no value arbitrage to be had, or just tighten availability to the point where hardly any seats exist to begin with. Either way, the rest of us are hosed.
It's already hard enough to get these seats just competing with other honest members. It's common sense that the airlines want their FFP to be a positive asset, not something with the toxic public image of Ticketmaster. Thus, it's in their interest to ban the brokers and devote some effort into blocking them wherever they pop up.
Aug 15, 2019, 12:12 pm
#187
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: SAN
Programs: AA CK, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 839
Aug 15, 2019, 12:18 pm
#188
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: DCA
Programs: DL DM, AA EXP, various hotel
Posts: 2,227
It's intended for both purposes. Customer knowledge of the terms and legal enforcement thereof.
To me the phrase "legalese" means a statement written in complex and convoluted legal terms that make it hard for a layperson to understand.
" Accrued mileage credit and award tickets do not constitute property of the member" is not a complex and convoluted statement. It's a clear and direct statement.
As for the particular term you singled out, the Flesch-Kinkaid Grade Level test puts it at 15.43. This means that it's generally understandable by people with three years of college and above. The similar Automated Readability Index puts it at 16.45, which means the reading level is post-graduate.
That's not clear and direct—and if it's intended to be well understood by a majority of the population, very badly executed.
Again—not saying any of this isn't legally enforceable. But that's a different question.
Aug 15, 2019, 12:36 pm
#189
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
"Sorry your honor, I didn't read this contract I signed. I shouldn't be held to it."
So your argument is: Company makes a disclosure statement of it's terms and conditions available. Customer is to too lazy or complacent to read it. Therefore customer should get a reprieve when they willingly decide to violate those terms.
Sorry, nope, that doesn't fly.
.
So your argument is: Company makes a disclosure statement of it's terms and conditions available. Customer is to too lazy or complacent to read it. Therefore customer should get a reprieve when they willingly decide to violate those terms.
Sorry, nope, that doesn't fly.
.
That said I dont believe you get me,Im not saying the miles are mine and mine to do as I want with them, and I get why AA and the others have this dept and should, and my gut tells me the OP isnt 100% clean and things didnt go down exactly as they said, had it Im sure AA would have given them a warning shot (but AA doesnt always do it especially if you have no status and dont purchase tkts on them)
Can I ask you honestly have you read ALL the T&Cs to ALL the programs you belong to before you joined up? and do so every couple of months since they do change from time to time. Do you actually turn the rental car contract over and read every single word and question what you dont fully understand before signing that contract and driving the car? etc etc Id bet you dont!
As another poster put it but not in these words most of the T&Cs are simply a CYBehind thing that their lawyers require, otherwise they have nothing to fall back onto
Aug 15, 2019, 12:50 pm
#190
Join Date: May 2009
Location: EUG
Programs: AS MVP, AA MM, HH Diamond, MR Gold
Posts: 8,223
Did I miss why AA did not completely close the OP's accounts/forfeit ALL miles as has happened to others? Was this his "warning"?
Aug 15, 2019, 1:03 pm
#191
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
Location: DFW/DAL
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, AS MVPG, HH Diamond, NCL Platinum Plus, MSC Diamond
Posts: 21,422
AA is correct to take the miles but that doesn't mean once can't appeal for some compassion. OP has been forthcoming and if they admit they didn't know the rules and didn't intend to break them it is entirely possible a lenient AA may give them back their miles or perhaps at least some of them.
Aug 15, 2019, 1:09 pm
#192
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
Location: DFW/DAL
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, AS MVPG, HH Diamond, NCL Platinum Plus, MSC Diamond
Posts: 21,422
We can debate AA's intent until the cows come home, but the research is exceedingly clear that people don't read form contracts or terms. You can call everyone lazy, or you can actually think about why that might be the case. And given that relatively common knowledge, it seems extraordinarily unlikely that it's actually in any way intended for consumers to proactively read or understand it.
As for the particular term you singled out, the Flesch-Kinkaid Grade Level test puts it at 15.43. This means that it's generally understandable by people with three years of college and above. The similar Automated Readability Index puts it at 16.45, which means the reading level is post-graduate.
That's not clear and direct—and if it's intended to be well understood by a majority of the population, very badly executed.
Again—not saying any of this isn't legally enforceable. But that's a different question.
As for the particular term you singled out, the Flesch-Kinkaid Grade Level test puts it at 15.43. This means that it's generally understandable by people with three years of college and above. The similar Automated Readability Index puts it at 16.45, which means the reading level is post-graduate.
That's not clear and direct—and if it's intended to be well understood by a majority of the population, very badly executed.
Again—not saying any of this isn't legally enforceable. But that's a different question.
Seriously, I wouldn't trust any tool which states that statement requires 15.43 to 16.45 years of college for it to be undestood
Aug 15, 2019, 1:14 pm
#193
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,246
The poster I was responding to was suggesting that it seemed odd that AA was taking the 300k and invalidating the ticket. And I was pointing out that if they didn't do that, the OP would be left with 150k and a valid ticket, versus 50k and a valid ticket.
Aug 15, 2019, 1:24 pm
#194
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Here and there
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 1,551
no trust me i understand. this is a forum for people to discussabout travel related issues. there is nothing to argue about with the OPs case; he broke the rules and the miles have been confiscated. i'm simply arguing that i dont think AA should care what you do with miles you have purchased/earned. but again, thats just my opinion.
Aug 15, 2019, 1:31 pm
#195
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
Programs: Marriott Ambassador; AA EXP 3MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 5,234
But -- when miles are sold through brokers, people use them rather than buying a ticket, so its really a substitution issue and a loss of revenue since the income from selling a ticket is higher than the income from recognizing income of a mileage redemption.
i'm sure they try their best; but mistakes happen... imagine meeting a guy on the subway and you strike up a conversation. his mom is dying and he cant afford to go see her. you generously offer to buy him a ticket to go visit her with your miles. how does AA know if you sold the miles or not? they have no way to know if the guy slipped you a few hundred bucks.. so as good as you think they are; mistakes are bound to happen. the only reason the OP got caught is because he (stupidly) put his phone number on the ad
The thing you're failing to appreciate is that AA doesn't really mind if mistakes do happen. Given the skills of their analysts I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have a target detection rate that then can estimate quite well.
And if AA accuse someone of selling when they didn't, the onus is on the person to prove that they weren't sold rather than on AA to prove that they were. And I think there are stories in the main thread where they did that and they got their miles and accounts back again (but these are a very very small minority of cases).
People give award flights to others who are not connected to them in any publicly visible way and 99% of the time these people fly with no hassle – maybe 1% or fewer get asked how they know the donor of the miles, or whether they paid for the ticket. But, as JonNYC has said, read the main thread to find the gory details on the tiny percentage that go further than that.
And if AA accuse someone of selling when they didn't, the onus is on the person to prove that they weren't sold rather than on AA to prove that they were. And I think there are stories in the main thread where they did that and they got their miles and accounts back again (but these are a very very small minority of cases).
People give award flights to others who are not connected to them in any publicly visible way and 99% of the time these people fly with no hassle – maybe 1% or fewer get asked how they know the donor of the miles, or whether they paid for the ticket. But, as JonNYC has said, read the main thread to find the gory details on the tiny percentage that go further than that.
Independent of that comment, its easy to see who I've bought tickets to fly with. Its probably not cousin X, who has a passport from _____ and lives in _____ had an international J redemption and hasn't otherwise flown AA.