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-   -   Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation) (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1939333-boeing-737-max-8-crashes-effects-aa-737-max-8s-not-reaccommodation.html)

teemuflyer Oct 29, 19 9:58 am


Originally Posted by sdsearch (Post 31676953)
Are you not aware that the FAA has to re-certify it first? :confused: They still haven't done that, and it's unclear when they will, and no US airline is willing to fly it again until at least the FAA re-certifies it.

There's nothing "willing" about it. They're not allowed to fly them commercially until 737 MAX is certified to do so.

skimthetrees Oct 29, 19 10:20 am


Originally Posted by rbAA (Post 31676828)
When they stop falling out of the sky.

Wrong. They have stopped. There has not been a crash since when? And they did not just "fall out of the sky". A well trained pilot would have been able to prevent the crashes. In fact that happened to the Indonesian Max on the flight before it crashed (pilot disconnected the system causing trouble and allowed the plane to land safely). The real answer is when the FAA certifies it to fly passengers again. I have full confidence that when that happens the plane will be 100% safe and protected against even poorly trained pilots.

AAdamE Oct 29, 19 10:29 am


Originally Posted by skimthetrees (Post 31677760)
Wrong. They have stopped. There has not been a crash since when? And they did not just "fall out of the sky". A well trained pilot would have been able to prevent the crashes. In fact that happened to the Indonesian Max on the flight before it crashed (pilot disconnected the system causing trouble and allowed the plane to land safely). The real answer is when the FAA certifies it to fly passengers again. I have full confidence that when that happens the plane will be 100% safe and protected against even poorly trained pilots.

MCAS was not in the flight manual. 350+ people died because of negligence, lets not waste time normalizing that and blaming pilots, when it's clear Boeing dropped the ball, and deliberately tried to cover it up. It's not a pilots job to overcome that.

nmpls Oct 29, 19 11:38 am


Originally Posted by skimthetrees (Post 31677760)
Wrong. They have stopped. There has not been a crash since when? And they did not just "fall out of the sky". A well trained pilot would have been able to prevent the crashes. In fact that happened to the Indonesian Max on the flight before it crashed (pilot disconnected the system causing trouble and allowed the plane to land safely). The real answer is when the FAA certifies it to fly passengers again. I have full confidence that when that happens the plane will be 100% safe and protected against even poorly trained pilots.

Grounded plane hasn't crashed. Amazing success.
While I agree that pilot training re:hand flying could be better, it is also important to design a plane that won't crash twice in quick succession with average pilots.

skimthetrees Oct 29, 19 12:30 pm


Originally Posted by nmpls (Post 31678062)
Grounded plane hasn't crashed. Amazing success.

Previous poster implied that they had.


Originally Posted by nmpls (Post 31678062)
While I agree that pilot training re:hand flying could be better, it is also important to design a plane that won't crash twice in quick succession with average pilots.

I agree. I have confidence that once the FAA re-certifies the aircraft it will be safe with average pilots. I would hope that in the US we have better than average pilots but I am not placing bets on that.

ijgordon Oct 29, 19 12:59 pm


Originally Posted by newyorkgeorge (Post 31677053)
The truth is no one really knows. Apparently the CEO of Southwest said that Boeing sent the programming fix to the FAA for testing and approval and best case scenario for his airline is that the FAA would approve by year end giving WN 2 months to get their Maxes fully back into service by February 2020.

And even then there will be a two-pronged approach - getting the already-owned and grounded aircraft back into service, and also accepting the backlog of new deliveries from Boeing that were supposed to have been delivered after March 2019. I think part 2 is pretty meaningful for WN, not sure about AA, but probably.

clubord Oct 29, 19 1:06 pm


Originally Posted by skimthetrees (Post 31678277)
Previous poster implied that they had.



I agree. I have confidence that once the FAA re-certifies the aircraft it will be safe with average pilots. I would hope that in the US we have better than average pilots but I am not placing bets on that.

An “average” pilot flying a Boeing 737 in the US does not have 300 hours like some involved in the MAX accidents. There are college interns at the majors that have more flight experience and are still years away from getting an opportunity to fly a Boeing 737 per the FAA and realistic, competitive hiring minimums.

Different country, different regulations.

UKtravelbear Oct 29, 19 5:15 pm

And don't assume that just because the FAA re-certifies it that the rest of the world will accept that and allow it to fly in their airspace

FAA basically trashed it's international reputation with other regulators over the MAX and it will take a heck of a long time to get it back.

AA100k Oct 29, 19 5:22 pm


Originally Posted by AANYC1981 (Post 31677001)
Boeing's CEO is on Capitol Hill today and tomorrow fielding questions from Congress about the Max.

Probably for a well-deserved, long overdue bashing from both sides.

ijgordon Oct 29, 19 7:47 pm


Originally Posted by UKtravelbear (Post 31679511)
And don't assume that just because the FAA re-certifies it that the rest of the world will accept that and allow it to fly in their airspace

FAA basically trashed it's international reputation with other regulators over the MAX and it will take a heck of a long time to get it back.

I would *guess* that this will be less of an issue for AA than foreign carriers. I know a lot of the MAXes we’re running out of MIA, which means they could be going to Caribbean/Latin America, and of course flying to or over Canada is also a possibility. But wouldn’t surprise me if most of those countries still follow the FAA’s lead. Euro and Asian-based carriers may have a longer delay. But I guess it’s also possible that the FAA wants to save face (to the extent it still can) and unground the planes jointly with at least one other major Foreign agency.

tikchik Oct 29, 19 7:52 pm


Originally Posted by AA100k (Post 31679534)
Probably for a well-deserved, long overdue bashing from both sides.

It was a bipartisan bashing. Never would have thought I'd see that in todays climate...

jmj9905 Oct 29, 19 7:58 pm

I don't understand why the Boeing board hasn't fired the CEO. They made a sacrificial lamb out of the CEO of commercial aviation but the head of Boeing is Mullenberg and his reaction and statements are abominable. He needs to go, YMMV

AA100k Oct 29, 19 8:39 pm


Originally Posted by tikchik (Post 31680029)
It was a bipartisan bashing. Never would have thought I'd see that in todays climate...

Congress flies just like the rest of us. It’s something we all have in common - a desire for safe travel.

rbAA Oct 29, 19 10:47 pm


Originally Posted by skimthetrees (Post 31677760)
Wrong. They have stopped. There has not been a crash since when? And they did not just "fall out of the sky". A well trained pilot would have been able to prevent the crashes. In fact that happened to the Indonesian Max on the flight before it crashed (pilot disconnected the system causing trouble and allowed the plane to land safely). The real answer is when the FAA certifies it to fly passengers again. I have full confidence that when that happens the plane will be 100% safe and protected against even poorly trained pilots.

Well, planes fall out of the sky all the time. That's why they call it the "final approach." Just they fall in a more controlled manner. The issue here as I read it, is that Boeing took some shortcuts and the FAA turned a blind eye to them, plus not requiring Boeing to train the pilots of the airlines they sold the plane to, as Boeing stated that the system was similar to the previous versions of the 737. Maybe skipping the pilot training to save costs was an airline issue, maybe not. In this age of deregulation, it's hard to trust the regulators. This is one area where it would be necessary to have an independant body of experts review the issues, including both the software and the design issues, as having the industry regulate itself in this area is a recipe for more disasters.

I remember the days of wind shear crashes in the Midwest and TX, and we still have these issues-wind shears of course- fewer crashes with the training of piolts on wind shear avoidance and procedures, though I do remember one aborted approach by a USAir plene at PIT, and the co-pilot who got off right in front of me saying that was the scariest flight he's ever been on.

bdhaliwa Oct 29, 19 10:48 pm

I'll make a bold prediction, the 737MAX will never return to service anywhere near its current form, not just for AA but for all the rest of the carriers. MAX is like a car that has an engine so powerful that if the gas pedal is pressed all the way it will fly off the ramp, sounds crazy right!!

BTW, this will require a bailout for Boeing, likely through some defense spending boost on useless stuff the Armed Forces don't need.


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