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-   -   Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation) (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1939333-boeing-737-max-8-crashes-effects-aa-737-max-8s-not-reaccommodation.html)

spongenotbob Nov 7, 18 12:11 am

Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)
 
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...-to-nose-dive/

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...ion-air-crash/

LondonElite Nov 7, 18 12:14 am

As per FT rules, would you kindly summarise these?

spongenotbob Nov 7, 18 12:21 am


Originally Posted by LondonElite (Post 30402805)
As per FT rules, would you kindly summarise these?

Faulty AoA reading causes the 737 MAX to automatically and "aggressively" trim nose down while also activating the stick-shaker. Extremely difficult recovery.

Djokison Nov 7, 18 4:11 am

Not exactly AA related, though.

miadukes Nov 7, 18 6:22 am


Originally Posted by Djokison (Post 30403269)
Not exactly AA related, though.

Except that perhaps they have a ton of these out there flying right now.

Science Goy Nov 7, 18 8:42 am


Originally Posted by miadukes (Post 30403522)
Except that perhaps they have a ton of these out there flying right now.

Since when is 15 or so planes in a fleet size of nearly a thousand "a ton"? :confused:

Djokison Nov 7, 18 8:44 am


Originally Posted by miadukes (Post 30403522)
Except that perhaps they have a ton of these out there flying right now.

If an AD was issued and/or the planes had to be grounded, sure. This is closer to: “oh btw, watch out for this, guys.”

And they hardly have a ton. They have 16 (17?), a whopping, 1.5% of the fleet.

Not to say this might not be a cause for concern. But just posting 2 links regarding the MAX does not an AA thread make.

arlflyer Nov 7, 18 8:55 am


Originally Posted by Djokison (Post 30403849)
[left]If an AD was issued and/or the planes had to be grounded, sure. This is closer to: “oh btw, watch out for this, guys.”

"The bulletin comes after a newly-delivered Lion Air 737 Max crashed off the coast of Indonesia on October 29, killing all aboard. The bulletin is expected to say that Indonesian air safety officials have said that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous angle of attack input."

Sounds like a little more than "Oh, hey, watch out guys" to me.

enpremiere Nov 7, 18 8:59 am


Originally Posted by Djokison (Post 30403849)


If an AD was issued and/or the planes had to be grounded, sure. This is closer to: “oh btw, watch out for this, guys.”

And they hardly have a ton. They have 16 (17?), a whopping, 1.5% of the fleet.

Not to say this might not be a cause for concern. But just posting 2 links regarding the MAX does not an AA thread make.

I beg to differ. The maximum takeoff weight of the 737 MAX 7 is 88.5 tons so 16 * 88.5 leaves us with 1416 tons of 737 MAX which is 1416 too many.

abk Nov 7, 18 11:40 am

Seems like a problem to me as my last flight and my next one are on that plane

Antarius Nov 7, 18 11:49 am


Originally Posted by spongenotbob (Post 30402814)
Extremely difficult recovery.

The bulletin was an FYI-be-cognizant-and-follow-procedure one. I don't think this is a fair characterization though. It is a problem, yes, but if it was extremely difficult to recover and dangerous, IMO, the MAX would be grounded.

2old4coach Nov 7, 18 12:46 pm

"Runaway Trim" is a very serious situation. The control pitch is almost impossible to overcome even by 2 crew members. However during training much empasis it placed on proper respone to "runaway trim" Almost all type rating and transition training have a runaway trim problem in the flight simulator.
"737 MAX defect" I would not call it a defect.

Lyon Air is going through a period of explosive growth. Was something missed?

I would have no fear of flying on American airlines new 737 MAX, however I will not be flying on one as I cannot fit in Parkers new 29" pitch seat.
( OFF TOPIC: Thank you Doug "spiderman" Parker. Parker is a big guy. I would love to see him or his staff fly cross county in the back. In fact I think all executives sould be made to fly in coach, to experience the service "enhancements." I think if they did we would have a better coach product.)

arlflyer Nov 7, 18 3:32 pm


Originally Posted by abk (Post 30404454)
Seems like a problem to me as my last flight and my next one are on that plane

Gosh, I hope not...

tbrein Nov 7, 18 3:54 pm


Originally Posted by abk (Post 30404454)
Seems like a problem to me as my last flight and my next one are on that plane

My next two flights are on that plane as well. Big problem for me as well.

Djokison Nov 7, 18 4:32 pm


Originally Posted by arlflyer (Post 30403885)
"The bulletin comes after a newly-delivered Lion Air 737 Max crashed off the coast of Indonesia on October 29, killing all aboard. The bulletin is expected to say that Indonesian air safety officials have said that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous angle of attack input."

Sounds like a little more than "Oh, hey, watch out guys" to me.

That’s your (erroneous) interpretation, then.

This is a heads up, no more, no less. At this point in time there is no reason to believe a MAX flight is any likelier to drop from the sky than any other plane.

NauticalWheeler Nov 7, 18 8:38 pm


Originally Posted by Djokison (Post 30405518)


That’s your (erroneous) interpretation, then.

This is a heads up, no more, no less. At this point in time there is no reason to believe a MAX flight is any likelier to drop from the sky than any other plane.

What other aircraft have this bulletin? Asking because I was not aware of these "bulletins" in general.

Can't the pilots disengage auto pilot when it is causing issues?

Science Goy Nov 7, 18 10:23 pm


Originally Posted by NauticalWheeler (Post 30406205)
What other aircraft have this bulletin? Asking because I was not aware of these "bulletins" in general.

I'd wager that pretty much every aircraft type in existence has active service bulletins.

tryathlete Nov 7, 18 10:38 pm

I’d like to “ask the pilot” what the procedure is for a defective Angle of Attack measuring system. I was flying at U of I institute of Aviation when one of my campus professors was designing his own A of A instrument with a little bit of help from me back then. Best way to operate an aircraft in my opinion is using A of A v airspeed, but that’s not the subject here I suppose.

cova Nov 7, 18 10:59 pm

The plane is supposed to fly automatically. If there is a bug in the system, that caused this - that requires manual intervention, then the plane is unsafe and should be grounded.

737s were grounded in the past, remember the crash in Pittsburg, due to rudder.

arlflyer Nov 8, 18 7:03 am


Originally Posted by Djokison (Post 30405518)
That’s your (erroneous) interpretation, then.

I'm just a simple aerospace engineer, so I'll defer to your expertise then. Clearly nothing to see here.

DataPlumber Nov 8, 18 7:46 am


Originally Posted by cova (Post 30406481)

737s were grounded in the past, remember the crash in Pittsburg, due to rudder.

Huh? The 737 was never grounded. An AD was issued to replace the rudder pcu’s. Operators were given 3 years to accomplish this, and pilots were trained on the recovery procedure on the interim.

There are airworthiness directives issued all the time. They range from what the layman would consider mundane to serious. I’d leave the heavy lifting on these matters to the professionals that maintain and fly the planes.

jk88usa Nov 8, 18 8:32 am

For those of you looking for a more technical explanation of this... I would highly recommend looking at the extensive forum on flight 610 over on a.net.

There is nothing that would concern me about getting on a MAX. This system is also in place on the old NG -8/900 models as well, but admittedly it’s “stronger” on the new MAXs (in Lehman’s terms). Boeing just issued a statement that basically says “follow the procedure” in the event of AOA instrument problems.

Runaway trim is a perfectly normal training scenario most pilots have practiced dozens of times. Until I see the NTSB or the FAA directly blame the MAX, I don’t see how that should change whether you get on one. This bulletin says nothing other than a reminder of how the systems work, and what procedure to follow.

GaryZ Nov 8, 18 8:57 am

The FAA issued an Emergency Airworthiness Directive requiring carriers to rewrite their flight manuals (if necessary) concerning recovery procedures...so not exactly a "heads up" warming. So yeah, probably not the safest plane to being flying right now.

thunderlounge Nov 8, 18 9:14 am


Originally Posted by jk88usa (Post 30407557)
There is nothing that would concern me about getting on a MAX.

Not even in Y? :D

jk88usa Nov 8, 18 9:17 am


Originally Posted by GaryZ (Post 30407647)
The FAA issued an Emergency Airworthiness Directive requiring carriers to rewrite their flight manuals (if necessary) concerning recovery procedures...so not exactly a "heads up" warming. So yeah, probably not the safest plane to being flying right now.

that is an extremely dramatic way of saying the FAA now requires you to put the 3 printed pages Boeing Issued at the front of your flight manuals. Those 3 pages are simply a reminder on procedure that is included later in the manual...

jk88usa Nov 8, 18 9:20 am


Originally Posted by thunderlounge (Post 30407705)
Not even in Y? :D

Ok you got me there, like many others I can’t even fit in the lav :D

formeraa Nov 8, 18 10:44 am

Instead of arguing over semantics, we should be asking what happened in the Lion Air accident. Why didn't the mechanics fix the problem, before the plane flew again? Did the previous flight crew report the problem in a coherent manner? Is there some sort of software issue that should be corrected? While the 737 has been around for nearly 50 years, this is essentially a new type of aircraft. There are always going to be issues and, unfortunately, accidents until the issues are worked out. We are fortunate these days that accidents are minimized, but look back at history of any commercial aircraft type. No need to get overly worried.

arlflyer Nov 13, 18 6:41 am


Originally Posted by Djokison (Post 30405518)


That’s your (erroneous) interpretation, then.

This is a heads up, no more, no less. At this point in time there is no reason to believe a MAX flight is any likelier to drop from the sky than any other plane.

Awaiting your update on this, given that the pilots' union and FAA disagree with you.

IADCAflyer Nov 13, 18 8:27 am

This is turning into a rather unpleasant and serious mess for the air frame manufacturer.

econometrics Nov 13, 18 9:08 am


Originally Posted by IADCAflyer (Post 30424828)
This is turning into a rather unpleasant and serious mess for the air frame manufacturer.

Sure is.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...ers-1542082575

GaryZ Nov 13, 18 10:00 am


Originally Posted by jk88usa (Post 30407714)


that is an extremely dramatic way of saying the FAA now requires you to put the 3 printed pages Boeing Issued at the front of your flight manuals. Those 3 pages are simply a reminder on procedure that is included later in the manual...

Maybe...otoh the mere fact this critical information was apparently omitted means current pilots will have never been trained on procedures to follow in the case of a failure. Would have probably been best for Boeing to ground the entire MAX fleet and work out all of the issues.

enpremiere Nov 13, 18 10:56 am


Originally Posted by GaryZ (Post 30425108)
Would have probably been best for Boeing to ground the entire MAX fleet and work out all of the issues.

I'd say about ten years of that would make me quite happy.

GaryZ Nov 18, 18 7:07 pm

Dennis Tajer, a long time AA pilot who flies the 737 MAX and is the spokesperson for APA, said: "Boeing broke his trust..."
Me, next month when I fly the beast, will try to engage the flight crew (if possible) as to whether they aware of MCAS and if they know about STAB TRIM and the cutoff switch

asf-07 Nov 18, 18 7:35 pm

an engineer I know who works for WN laughed it off and said their pilots knew all about it. so who knows.

DCP2016 Nov 18, 18 8:17 pm

Out of caution, AA should ground all of their 737 MAX for at least 20 years, every other airline can fly them, only AA needs to ground them. ;)

cova Mar 10, 19 6:48 am

With the 2nd crash, if Boeing doesn't ground the aircraft, I certainly hope that AA takes it out of service and delays future deliveries. I will not be booking any 7M8 flights on AA.

FFMilesJunkie Mar 10, 19 6:55 am


Originally Posted by cova (Post 30868465)
With the 2nd crash, if Boeing doesn't ground the aircraft, I certainly hope that AA takes it out of service and delays future deliveries. I will not be booking any 7M8 flights on AA.

I just started a thread in Omni to discuss the general concern about the Max 8: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni...-concerns.html

I was already a little nervous about the Max 8 after the Lion Air crash a couple months ago. Boeing has a serious issue on its hands now. May be a major design flaw with the engines and center of gravity. Or maybe just needs a total redesign of the flight control software. Either way, we may see a total grounding of the aircraft type.

IADCAflyer Mar 10, 19 7:17 am

The optics of this look really bad and I'm betting there are some full freakout sessions taking place in Seattle and Chicago today.

Tilto007 Mar 10, 19 7:18 am

Anyone who has flown this plane on the densified AA version knows how horrible this plane is.Now that it is proving to be unsafe also makes avoiding this plane an easy decision.Unfortunately MIA has so many of this type that it will not be easy.

SouthernCross Mar 10, 19 8:20 am

While the safety issues are clearly very important, I’m afraid it will distract from the still very relevant densification issues. Parker can point to the safety issues and say “See, that’s why folks are avoiding this aircraft.” and steam forward with densification.


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