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-   -   Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation) (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1939333-boeing-737-max-8-crashes-effects-aa-737-max-8s-not-reaccommodation.html)

serfty Jun 18, 19 3:31 pm


Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31214961)
IAG (BA, EI, IB, etc.) has just announced an order for 200 Boeing 737 MAX 8,9 and 10 at the Paris Air Show....

I wonder how much of a price discount they received ...

formeraa Jun 18, 19 3:52 pm


Originally Posted by serfty (Post 31216046)
I wonder how much of a price discount they received ...

I was thinking the same thing...and I bet the contract language is a bit "looser" than the normal contract language in terms of getting out of the contract, if the issues aren't fixed within a suitable period of time.

QtownDave Jun 18, 19 4:17 pm

It would seem the perfect time to get the best deal ever if one was in the market for these new planes. And whatever the discounts, Boeing should be thrilled to offer them.

nk15 Jun 19, 19 11:53 am


Originally Posted by iadisgreat (Post 31212926)
Meh, it'll be safe when it comes back. And given people's stated desire to book away from them (though I doubt it will actually materialize), the upgrade should be easy for the short term.

Why only for the short term, you mean until the nosedives start again? :p
I will also be avoiding the aircraft. If AA buys more, or that IAG order goes through, I am out of OW for sure.

QtownDave Jun 19, 19 11:55 am

Once the fix is done and the pilots agree then they will need to do some serious PR work to explain to the general public exactly why it's really safe

nk15 Jun 19, 19 12:58 pm

Unbelievable….Boeing is fighting simulator training for the new "fixed" MCAS, and want one hour of ipad training instead.

https://news.yahoo.com/sully-sullenb...172033182.html

I don't think they have learned anything from all this, or they really care about safety....

flyingeph12 Jun 19, 19 1:09 pm


Originally Posted by nk15 (Post 31219219)
Unbelievable….Boeing is fighting simulator training for the new "fixed" MCAS, and want one hour of ipad training instead.

https://news.yahoo.com/sully-sullenb...172033182.html

I don't think they have learned anything from all this, or they really care about safety....

To be fair, according to the article, it seems the head of the APA (which represents AA pilots) is the one saying simulator training "poses logistical issues." Additionally, the union says Boeing "has said that simulator training is not necessary, and is recommending a mandatory computer-based course that explains MCAS and could be completed at a pilot’s home in about an hour, according to pilot unions."


Boeing has said that simulator training is not necessary, and is recommending a mandatory computer-based course that explains MCAS and could be completed at a pilot’s home in about an hour, according to pilot unions.

JDiver Jun 19, 19 1:10 pm


Originally Posted by nk15 (Post 31219219)
Unbelievable….Boeing is fighting simulator training for the new "fixed" MCAS, and want one hour of ipad training instead.

https://news.yahoo.com/sully-sullenb...172033182.html

I don't think they have learned anything from all this, or they really care about safety....

They’ve learned something, but arguably not enough.

Part of the issue is simulator cost. The entirety of AA offers one static simulator and one MIA based dynamic sim to be delivered later this year, iirc. Airlines don’t like to buy non-productive expensive equipment, aircraft manufacturers don’t make much on them, there’s no economy of scale.

AA pilots are pushing for simulator training, and it looks like AA pilots will at least get duty time to book MIA sim time. (A sim at DFW? A shared sim or two for AA and WN in the DAL-DFW area might be worth thinking about, even if that’s not Kosher at all. Maybe a division of Boeing or a third party operator open to all airlines with MAX aircraft?

bchandler02 Jun 19, 19 1:11 pm


Originally Posted by nk15 (Post 31219219)
Unbelievable….Boeing is fighting simulator training for the new "fixed" MCAS, and want one hour of ipad training instead.

https://news.yahoo.com/sully-sullenb...172033182.html

I don't think they have learned anything from all this, or they really care about safety....

What a complete load of fecal matter.
Boeing deserves every ounce of bad PR and liability thrown at them at this point for this.

flyingeph12 Jun 19, 19 1:15 pm


Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31219267)
AA pilots are pushing for simulator training, and it looks like AA pilots will at least get duty time to book MIA sim time. (A sim at DFW? A shared sim or two for AA and WN in the DAL-DFW area might be worth thinking about, even if that’s not Kosher at all. Maybe a division of Boeing or a third party operator open to all airlines with MAX aircraft?

The linked article makes it seem as if the president of the APA, which represents AA pilots, isn't really pushing for simulator training before the planes start flying, saying that such a course would pose "logistical issues." Rather, "Carey said pilots could get computer- and video-based training before the plane returns to service and then all could get into simulators within 10 months."

JDiver Jun 19, 19 1:25 pm


Originally Posted by flyingeph12 (Post 31219281)
The linked article makes it seem as if the president of the APA, which represents AA pilots, isn't really pushing for simulator training before the planes start flying, saying that such a course would pose "logistical issues." Rather, "Carey said pilots could get computer- and video-based training before the plane returns to service and then all could get into simulators within 10 months."

Yep, this is what I was referring to. There’s limited simulator availability. There won’t be a MAX pilot whose brain won’t be seared by the heat of learning and knowing every aspect of MCAS and associated issues, and I believe the same of UA and WN pilots. But I think the simulator time is valued and useful.

bchandler02 Jun 19, 19 1:47 pm

There's also this article that discusses the concern that some pilots may not be physically strong enough.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/physica...ht-11560937879

At what point is enough actually enough and these flying death traps are done for good?

JDiver Jun 19, 19 2:55 pm


Originally Posted by bchandler02 (Post 31219414)
There's also this article that discusses the concern that some pilots may not be physically strong enough.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/physica...ht-11560937879

At what point is enough actually enough and these flying death traps are done for good?

That’s a question applicable for every aircraft, every pilot.

I personally opine your statement of “flying death traps” is hyperbolic, to say the least. If you’re an aeronautical engineer or designer, or have your ATR rating, I’m all ears. :)

Actual flying death traps:

De Havilland DH-106 Comet. The critical design flaw in these meant rapid metal fatigue induced by the pressurization cycles experienced by all aircraft caused tears originating at the corners of the square windows that resulted in disintegration in flight.

The extensive investigation and redesign allowed a redesigned DH-106 aircraft, including the successful Royal Navy Nimrod and the Comet 4C. AA never operated these, but a number of others did.

Lockheed L-188 Electra. This aircraft had a design flaw where at particular engine RPMs and conditions the wings would be shaken off (“"whirl mode flutter" issue) and the aircraft would crash. AA did operate these, and in fact was the launch customer.

Lockheed rectified the problem by performing a “LEAP” 20 day refit to all existing aircraft; the redesign was included for all new hulls. Some Electra’s are still flying, mostly as freighters or as the many P-3C Orion naval patrol aircraft. (They were popular for flying into / out of “hot and high” airports like TV!, even when their heyday was over, and Lockheed experienced a net loss with the Electra itself. A good lesson for Boeing?)

If the 3M8s were “flying death traps” and believed to be so by their pilots - some of who do have aeronautical training - they’d refuse to fly them, because they’d feel under death sentence for their passengers and themselves.

Certainly, you and anyone else with long lasting concerns should exercise choice and avoid flying on this aircraft. But I do suspect you’ll be among a minority of the flying public.

Safe travels.

VegasGambler Jun 19, 19 3:54 pm

While your historical knowledge is impressive, the fact that you have to go back to the 1950s to find planes that were more dangerous than the MAX says a lot.

The point is that we have come a long way in the past 60-70 years, and air travel is a lot safer than it used to be. If the MAX is a regression to the safety levels of the 1950s, then it has to be permanently grounded, because that level of safety is simply no longer acceptable.

flyingeph12 Jun 19, 19 4:14 pm


Originally Posted by VegasGambler (Post 31219895)
While your historical knowledge is impressive, the fact that you have to go back to the 1950s to find planes that were more dangerous than the MAX says a lot.

The point is that we have come a long way in the past 60-70 years, and air travel is a lot safer than it used to be. If the MAX is a regression to the safety levels of the 1950s, then it has to be permanently grounded, because that level of safety is simply no longer acceptable.

To be fair, I think JDiver's point is that some of the planes in the 1950s were actual "flying death traps." The 7M8 is not one of those. So I actually don't think it really says anything about the safety of the 7M8 to say that they are not the flying death traps of the 1950s.

I do share your general discomfort with the 7M8, however, and I am not confident that it is as safe as other planes out there today, despite what Boeing and AA pilots say. While that might not be completely rational, I'm probably going to go out of my way to avoid it, at least for a while.


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