Baby Stroller Incident on AA591 SFO>DFW April 21st
Apr 23, 2017, 6:17 am
#451
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 334
I just scanned this thread and the videos.
My first conclusion, unlike the Captain of UA #3411 , who appears to have been nowhere near the passenger compartment of 3411 during the "escalated situation" on that flight, the AA Captain of this AA flight was in the cabin, doing what one would expect the Captain "in charge of the ship," and the Incident Commander to be doing, observing, and making executive decisions. That, to me, is a credit to that Captain, and to AA. And that to me is the difference between the professionals at AA, and the amateurs at United, and the culture at AA, and the culture at United.
The flight attendant, on the other hand, who the Flyertalk Court of Public Opinion, seems to be quite kind to, strikes me as a volatile character, in the wrong business, who does not know when to disengage when the time is right. Kudos to AA for taking that flight attendant out of circulation (suspension, pending investigation). Now, watch Union's do what Union's do best, defend bad apples (that's their job!).
My first conclusion, unlike the Captain of UA #3411 , who appears to have been nowhere near the passenger compartment of 3411 during the "escalated situation" on that flight, the AA Captain of this AA flight was in the cabin, doing what one would expect the Captain "in charge of the ship," and the Incident Commander to be doing, observing, and making executive decisions. That, to me, is a credit to that Captain, and to AA. And that to me is the difference between the professionals at AA, and the amateurs at United, and the culture at AA, and the culture at United.
The flight attendant, on the other hand, who the Flyertalk Court of Public Opinion, seems to be quite kind to, strikes me as a volatile character, in the wrong business, who does not know when to disengage when the time is right. Kudos to AA for taking that flight attendant out of circulation (suspension, pending investigation). Now, watch Union's do what Union's do best, defend bad apples (that's their job!).
Apr 23, 2017, 6:25 am
#452
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I have to laugh at anyone in this thread saying "I don't have to comply with orders from airline staff". News flash, you do, and if you refuse, you will be given the boot. That's not to say staff can tell you anything they feel like, but if they say your bag is not going (or stroller) it's not going. No amount of stomping, refusing, or huffing and puffing is going to change that. I am not sure where this whole "I can do what I want I don't have to comply with policy" crap is coming from.
The FA was in the wrong regardless of what happened before the video. He never should have allowed that guy to get under his skin, he likely just cost himself a job for sure with that one.
That male pax should have been tossed. It's one thing to be upset and demand his name, it's another to threaten the FA and escalate it way higher than it should have been. In all honestly it seemed the situation was settling down til that arsehat intervened and acted like that.
Anyone who is defending him either is ridiculous I am sorry. He only made it far worse.
Should have been a simple scenario, should have told the lady in a composed voice it cannot go in the airplane. If she refused to give up the stroller that's fine, but she will also be giving up her seat on that flight. The a/c won't budge until she follows the policy as it will not fit. If lady decided to freak out and go bezerk about it, you call a LEO and have her removed from the flt. Ripping a stroller out of her hand, is never going to make things better. Even if that was all embellished greatly and the FA didn't do anything wrong, his reaction in the video to that male pax was 100% wrong.
The FA was in the wrong regardless of what happened before the video. He never should have allowed that guy to get under his skin, he likely just cost himself a job for sure with that one.
That male pax should have been tossed. It's one thing to be upset and demand his name, it's another to threaten the FA and escalate it way higher than it should have been. In all honestly it seemed the situation was settling down til that arsehat intervened and acted like that.
Anyone who is defending him either is ridiculous I am sorry. He only made it far worse.
Should have been a simple scenario, should have told the lady in a composed voice it cannot go in the airplane. If she refused to give up the stroller that's fine, but she will also be giving up her seat on that flight. The a/c won't budge until she follows the policy as it will not fit. If lady decided to freak out and go bezerk about it, you call a LEO and have her removed from the flt. Ripping a stroller out of her hand, is never going to make things better. Even if that was all embellished greatly and the FA didn't do anything wrong, his reaction in the video to that male pax was 100% wrong.
Apr 23, 2017, 6:31 am
#453
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It is lamentable at best, clearly written to help protect the FA by deflecting the documented, visible proof of his ... poor job performance by shifting the blame to " ... tight schedules, overcrowded flights, shrinking seats, and limited overhead space." " ... Air rage has become a serious issue on our flights." Evidently air rage its a serious issue unless its a union member. Shame on the FA, and shame on the APFA. Bob R***, APFA president, are you listening?
Oh, I get it! Sarcasm. Bob R***, APFA president, are you listening?
...
The flight attendant, on the other hand, who the Flyertalk Court of Public Opinion, seems to be quite kind to, strikes me as a volatile character, in the wrong business, who does not know when to disengage when the time is right. Kudos to AA for taking that flight attendant out of circulation (suspension, pending investigation). Now, watch Union's do what Union's do best, defend bad apples (that's their job!).
Last edited by JY1024; Apr 23, 2017 at 11:06 am Reason: Merged consecutive posts
Apr 23, 2017, 7:26 am
#454
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I don't believe this account, because
1) the physical altercation happened in the very front of the airplane, so the first class passenger had a better view of what actually happened than this person claiming to have sat across from the lady with the stroller;
2) it contradicts several other claims from eyewitnesses who actually posted their name and/or ticket
3) the FA's extremely aggressive behavior in the video shown contradicts the claims that the FA was calm and polite.
1) the physical altercation happened in the very front of the airplane, so the first class passenger had a better view of what actually happened than this person claiming to have sat across from the lady with the stroller;
2) it contradicts several other claims from eyewitnesses who actually posted their name and/or ticket
3) the FA's extremely aggressive behavior in the video shown contradicts the claims that the FA was calm and polite.
Apr 23, 2017, 7:43 am
#455
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The reason for getting a waiver signed would be so they wouldn't have the headache of a potentially frivolous lawsuit later. They offered her compensation, which they would need to since they did offload her, and she accepted. Just because you offer compensation doesn't mean you were in the wrong, just good foresight to seek indemnity at a very low cost.
Then let's just focus on him improperly inserting himself into a situation and escalating it by threatening violence. I wonder why he wasn't offloading and possibly arrested especially when AA chose to allow the male FA to keep working that flight.
Are you going to boycott AA now over AA's response or the male FA's actions?
Then let's just focus on him improperly inserting himself into a situation and escalating it by threatening violence. I wonder why he wasn't offloading and possibly arrested especially when AA chose to allow the male FA to keep working that flight.Are you going to boycott AA now over AA's response or the male FA's actions?
Apr 23, 2017, 7:51 am
#456
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 404
TMZ usually comes up with the grim facts the hypersensitve mainline media considers irrelevant with an appealing story like this. The whack job has no more or less rights than anyone else, and no special entitlement because she is dragging two infants on board. Kids are great but they don't own everything e.g., in crowded restaurants, on airlines - and neither does she.
As a bonus we have a goomba extra from the Sopranos, towering over and taunting the shrimpy GA or whatever he was. What a hero. Only a fool initiates threats on an aircraft, in an elevator, or seated in a car. If things escalate, there's no way out if you pick the wrong person to intimidate.
As a bonus we have a goomba extra from the Sopranos, towering over and taunting the shrimpy GA or whatever he was. What a hero. Only a fool initiates threats on an aircraft, in an elevator, or seated in a car. If things escalate, there's no way out if you pick the wrong person to intimidate.
After reading far too much on this story what has really striked me the most is the knee jerk contempt not directed at the airline but at the pax. And in forums where I can see posters age and gender it's principally from younger people and males.Maybe she was in the wrong and maybe she was not but the lack of empathy and the tough guy stances by the critics is notable.
Time to get on with my weekend. Ty all who have contributed.
Apr 23, 2017, 7:55 am
#457
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I just scanned this thread and the videos.
My first conclusion, unlike the Captain of UA #3411 , who appears to have been nowhere near the passenger compartment of 3411 during the "escalated situation" on that flight, the AA Captain of this AA flight was in the cabin, doing what one would expect the Captain "in charge of the ship," and the Incident Commander to be doing, observing, and making executive decisions. That, to me, is a credit to that Captain, and to AA. And that to me is the difference between the professionals at AA, and the amateurs at United, and the culture at AA, and the culture at United.
The flight attendant, on the other hand, who the Flyertalk Court of Public Opinion, seems to be quite kind to, strikes me as a volatile character, in the wrong business, who does not know when to disengage when the time is right. Kudos to AA for taking that flight attendant out of circulation (suspension, pending investigation). Now, watch Union's do what Union's do best, defend bad apples (that's their job!).
My first conclusion, unlike the Captain of UA #3411 , who appears to have been nowhere near the passenger compartment of 3411 during the "escalated situation" on that flight, the AA Captain of this AA flight was in the cabin, doing what one would expect the Captain "in charge of the ship," and the Incident Commander to be doing, observing, and making executive decisions. That, to me, is a credit to that Captain, and to AA. And that to me is the difference between the professionals at AA, and the amateurs at United, and the culture at AA, and the culture at United.
The flight attendant, on the other hand, who the Flyertalk Court of Public Opinion, seems to be quite kind to, strikes me as a volatile character, in the wrong business, who does not know when to disengage when the time is right. Kudos to AA for taking that flight attendant out of circulation (suspension, pending investigation). Now, watch Union's do what Union's do best, defend bad apples (that's their job!).
I'm almost surprised that some customers didn't refuse to fly with that FA.
Apr 23, 2017, 7:58 am
#458
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 61
Yes. I challenge the author of this FB post, when next sitting in a FC aisle seat, to truly stick his head into the aisleway during boarding and see how well it goes for him.
Apr 23, 2017, 8:34 am
#459
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 8
He didn't pick a fight. He mentioned a hypothetical scenario in which he would respond in self defense.
Apr 23, 2017, 8:43 am
#460
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The bottom line is:
Argentine woman - was struck in the face with a metal object. Was either too demanding or unaware of carry on limitations. She turned out ok with a free F class to Argentina, $1000 voucher, and refund of her ticket.
Hot head FA - He is a hot head. To inflate his chest and say "Hit Me!" should make him subject to disciplinary action.
Meatheat male passenger - He is not a sheep. On 9-11, he might have done good. There are indications that he may be a hot head in real life, which is not good. His actions resulted in a free ticket for the woman. My assessment of him is mixed.
AA - their PR is better than United. Good that they didn't call the police or they didn't handcuff the 2 passengers.
Argentine woman - was struck in the face with a metal object. Was either too demanding or unaware of carry on limitations. She turned out ok with a free F class to Argentina, $1000 voucher, and refund of her ticket.
Hot head FA - He is a hot head. To inflate his chest and say "Hit Me!" should make him subject to disciplinary action.
Meatheat male passenger - He is not a sheep. On 9-11, he might have done good. There are indications that he may be a hot head in real life, which is not good. His actions resulted in a free ticket for the woman. My assessment of him is mixed.
AA - their PR is better than United. Good that they didn't call the police or they didn't handcuff the 2 passengers.
edit to add:
Just a bit of speculation on my part.... Could the lady perhaps not understood that the stroller was going to be checked and instead believed it would just get left behind? That would certainly make her unwilling to let go. There could have been a language barrier that contributed to events. Add in a FA who may have had some stressors impacting his life. Most things are not as simple as they look but peel back the layers to fully understand what went wrong. Doesn't excuse what happened.
Last edited by Boggie Dog; Apr 23, 2017 at 9:12 am
Apr 23, 2017, 8:46 am
#461
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Flyertalk folk tend to be seasoned travelers. Yet, as seen early on in the thread, there was confusion on what is allowed for strollers. There's no consistency. If that's true here on this board, I'm sure it's not consistent in the industry and throughout any airline-- issue #1 .
Issue#2. FA (not GA) has a hothead. Union already representing and retraining will occur before he returns to duty -- I'd hate to have him on crew and it's a matter of time the next shoe to drop.
Issue #3 . Fellow passenger. I truly believe the intent is right. His own temper got in the way too. As a First Class passenger he either has $$$ or status which he could leverage in much stronger positions and forcefully than he did at the heat of the moment. My hope with that every one of those first class passengers write to AA on their accounts and views.
Issue #4 . Mom with kids. Traveling with two kids is hard. Give her a break. We have NO idea why she's traveling in a foreign country and handling two kids by herself. She appears to not have been given the opportunity to preboard and maybe situation would have been avoided if GA was had Id'd her with such a need (or had time to do that). Regardless, the lack of empathy by some posters here is remarkable. She has an infant and child in hand and just got belted on the head. That should incense any person, not generate 'perhaps she deserved it' or 'should have known better'.
Issue#2. FA (not GA) has a hothead. Union already representing and retraining will occur before he returns to duty -- I'd hate to have him on crew and it's a matter of time the next shoe to drop.
Issue #3 . Fellow passenger. I truly believe the intent is right. His own temper got in the way too. As a First Class passenger he either has $$$ or status which he could leverage in much stronger positions and forcefully than he did at the heat of the moment. My hope with that every one of those first class passengers write to AA on their accounts and views.
Issue #4 . Mom with kids. Traveling with two kids is hard. Give her a break. We have NO idea why she's traveling in a foreign country and handling two kids by herself. She appears to not have been given the opportunity to preboard and maybe situation would have been avoided if GA was had Id'd her with such a need (or had time to do that). Regardless, the lack of empathy by some posters here is remarkable. She has an infant and child in hand and just got belted on the head. That should incense any person, not generate 'perhaps she deserved it' or 'should have known better'.
Apr 23, 2017, 9:24 am
#462
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I have to laugh at anyone in this thread saying "I don't have to comply with orders from airline staff". News flash, you do, and if you refuse, you will be given the boot. That's not to say staff can tell you anything they feel like, but if they say your bag is not going (or stroller) it's not going. No amount of stomping, refusing, or huffing and puffing is going to change that. I am not sure where this whole "I can do what I want I don't have to comply with policy" crap is coming from.
That male pax should have been tossed. It's one thing to be upset and demand his name, it's another to threaten the FA and escalate it way higher than it should have been. In all honestly it seemed the situation was settling down til that arsehat intervened and acted like that.
Anyone who is defending him either is ridiculous I am sorry. He only made it far worse.
Anyone who is defending him either is ridiculous I am sorry. He only made it far worse.
Apr 23, 2017, 9:35 am
#463
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Except the tmz report gives no source and contradicts other sourced accounts.
After reading far too much on this story what has really striked me the most is the knee jerk contempt not directed at the airline but at the pax. And in forums where I can see posters age and gender it's principally from younger people and males.Maybe she was in the wrong and maybe she was not but the lack of empathy and the tough guy stances by the critics is notable.
Time to get on with my weekend. Ty all who have contributed.
After reading far too much on this story what has really striked me the most is the knee jerk contempt not directed at the airline but at the pax. And in forums where I can see posters age and gender it's principally from younger people and males.Maybe she was in the wrong and maybe she was not but the lack of empathy and the tough guy stances by the critics is notable.
Time to get on with my weekend. Ty all who have contributed.
I too am getting on with my weekend and week. Off to the 11th Arondissment ... on AA.
Last edited by Dallas49er; Apr 23, 2017 at 11:38 am
Apr 23, 2017, 9:46 am
#464
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I have to laugh at anyone in this thread saying "I don't have to comply with orders from airline staff". News flash, you do, and if you refuse, you will be given the boot. That's not to say staff can tell you anything they feel like, but if they say your bag is not going (or stroller) it's not going. No amount of stomping, refusing, or huffing and puffing is going to change that. I am not sure where this whole "I can do what I want I don't have to comply with policy" crap is coming from.
It's easy to imagine a scenario in which an FA, not realizing that any strollers exist that fold small enough to be a legal, regular carry on, initially says the stroller can't go in the bin. Then the passenger points out that it's a legal sized carry on, and the FA agrees. There is considerable evidence that the blue-shirted FA was, at least on that day, incapable of that level of rational discussion with a customer.
So passengers certainly do have the right to respond to FA instructions. This is not the military; an FA's order isn't indisputable law. There are certainly limits, but I have not seen any evidence that the mother passenger did anything that rises to the level of unlawfully not complying with a crew member instruction.
Apr 23, 2017, 9:53 am
#465
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AA had the United event as a filter for their own actions for this event.
edit to add:
Just a bit of speculation on my part.... Could the lady perhaps not understood that the stroller was going to be checked and instead believed it would just get left behind? That would certainly make her unwilling to let go. There could have been a language barrier that contributed to events. Add in a FA who may have had some stressors impacting his life. Most things are not as simple as they look but peel back the layers to fully understand what went wrong. Doesn't excuse what happened.
edit to add:
Just a bit of speculation on my part.... Could the lady perhaps not understood that the stroller was going to be checked and instead believed it would just get left behind? That would certainly make her unwilling to let go. There could have been a language barrier that contributed to events. Add in a FA who may have had some stressors impacting his life. Most things are not as simple as they look but peel back the layers to fully understand what went wrong. Doesn't excuse what happened.
More wrongs (FA getting hot headed, flyer yelling at FA) don't make the original wrong right! In fact, each of the subsequent wrongs made the original situation worse, and the person who committed the original wrong is the one who is ending up getting compensated.
I have worked in the service industry and in a certain role I had for a year or two, I was often faced with compensating people for things that were probably their fault to begin with. That's part of the nature of the job-- you have to be nice to everyone (well, almost everyone, but the bar is really, really high, like if you're not going to be nice to the person it should be because you have already called law enforcement on them). In this case, it seems AA has "service recovery" on the mind after the UA incident, which is honestly a good thing. I think we've all been in situations where things didn't go right and we would want to be treated nicely by AA.