Last edit by: JDiver
The current thread for discussing the 767-323ER Thompson Vantage Business Seats is https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1542143-boeing-767-300-763-thompson-vantage-business-seat-map-best-seats.html.
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"CIP" Cabin Improvement Program Full Lie Flat Thompson Vantage Seat and All-Aisle Access. 16 of 24 with WiFi, Business with tablets for IFE.
See American Airlines Business Class Seat video in first post [/b][/center]
Due to thread and interest growth, please see 763 / 767 CIP New (2014) Business Seat and Map (master thread). BUSINESS SEAT and BUSINESS CABIN posts have moved to that thread.
NOTE: All currently flying 763s are refurbished.
100% of the active fleet have been converted (as of 30OCT17) (* = wifi available):
- N342AN*, N343AN*, N344AN*, N346AN*, N347AN*, N348AN*, N349AN*, N350AN*, N379AA, N381AN*, N384AA*, N385AM, N388AA, N389AA, N390AA, N391AA, N392AN, N393AN, N394AN, N395AN, N396AN, N397AN*, N398AN, and N399AN*.
The following 34 aircraft have been retired (as of 30OCT17):
- N345AN, N351AA, N352AA, N353AA, N354AA, N355AA, N357AA, N358AA, N39356, N359AA, N360AA, N361AA, N362AA, N363AA, N39364, N39365, N366AA, N39367, N368AA, N369AA, N370AA, N371AA, N372AA, N373AA, N374AA, N7375A, N376AN, N377AN, N378AN, N382AN, N383AN, N386AA, N387AM, N380AN (with N373AA being the final NGBC aircraft retired to Roswell on 30OCT17)
Program details:
- ~26 (46%) of AA's fleet of 57 763 / 767-323ERs have been retained and upgraded with a Cabin Improvement Program - 28 new horizontal lie-flat Thompson Vantage business seats, 14 MCE seats (row 11 gets removed as the business cabin is enlarged), and 163 coach / economy (including 14 exit row) seats. Other upgrades include international satellite Wi-Fi (refit started in 2016), 110V AC power outlets in the business cabin (MCE and coach will retain 15V DC cigarette-lighter style power), new overhead monitors and audio systems, and a refurbishment of lavatories and main cabin seats. No personal in-seat video system was installed - the premium cabin retain the Samsung Galaxy tablets (docked to seatbacks) on international flights, and the main cabin, as well as the premium cabin on domestic flights, will stay with shared overhead screens.
- These aircraft were refurbished for one reason: the AA/BA/IB/AY transatlantic joint business agreement requires that AA have lie-flat seats for transatlantic routes.
- Link to post with artist's rendition of new J cabin. Link to post with new seat maps as they appear in AA.com
- Link to airchive article including pictures, and Link to mycrewlife blog post with more renderings showing the business cabin.
- Link to FT Trip Report with images
- Link to AA's widebody CIP announcement. For 777 upgrades, see thread 777-200ER / 772 No First; New Business Announced 2014 (767 stuff moved).
J-cabin seat map:
Code:
A D G J 2 0_ 0_0_ _0 2 3 _0 _0_0 0_ 3 4 0_ 0_0_ _0 4 5 _0 _0_0 0_ 5 6 0_ 0_0_ _0 6 7 _0 _0_0 0_ 7 8 0_ 0_0_ _0 8 A D G J Legend: 0 = seat; _ = table
Note: the seats in C behind seats with smaller consoles (inside center) have smaller foot cubbies; those with large feet or shoes will feel cramped. Those over six feet will feel cramped if they lie supine in the fully flattened seat; sleeping slanted or side sleeping with bent legs is possible.
In Business they offer a 110 VAC multi-socket in the e-pad front tray area, and another, as well as USB and audio mini jack at shoulder height over and at the rear of the console. Seat controls are touch controls, and can involuntarily be operated by resting your forearm on the console.
The tray table is released with a button; it pivots out and folds. Table height may impede those who are portly or have long legs. Overhead bins, IFE monitors, lavs etc. have not been upgraded.
JDiver's mini-report here.
Contributors: sensei, SDQBound(former B7e7US), Longboater, Econometrics[/COLOR]
ARCHIVE: Boeing 767-300 / 763 "CIP" with Lie Flat Business (2014 CIP)
#136
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These were state of the art when introduced in 1997 or so. AA had a two row mock up on display at the WfC wintergarden during some expo. I had a flight to Europe upcoming, and booked on AA to experience the seat for real. One of the beginnings of my time as an AA flyer.
Here's a little "history of the herringbone" that I got from an incredible source a while ago:
"CX, NZ, AC, DL, Jet, VS etc all offer a version of herringbone (seats angled to centerline) seat, Airbus are 3 abreast, B777 and B747 are 4 abreast. They offer a flat bed with 100% direct aisle access. VS was the first and offered it in 2003 in response to BA's 2000 flat introduction. VS had simultaneously introduced the first flat at an angle seat in 2000 but realized they had been trumped by their UK rival. VS then set about building what we now know as the Upper Class herringbone with the flip over bed. As several have noted it faces away from the windows, you really can't travel with anyone, etc. But it has always rated very highly because you get a flat bed and 100% access.
NZ built it under license. Contour, the manufacturer then built what they call Solar Eclipse, which is built off the Eclipse angled flat mechanism platform. Solar Eclipse had a much better mechanism and you don't have to get out the seat to lay flat in bed mode, also it has a legrest (which VS does not) with more adjustability to get into "Z" positions etc.
Contour sold this improved version to AC, DL, Jet, etc. VS then sued for patent infringement and they have been arguing ever since. Contour won the first judgment and VS won the appeal. It is now going before the EU patent officials and possibly the UK Supreme Court. [some consider VS's case to be flimsy], [but they have been ardent and persistent and appear] to have convinced the appeals judge they invented that residual conehead shaped space between the window wall and seat furniture.
CX's current seat was introduced in late 2006. It is also a herringbone, but unlike the others it was built by B/E Aerospace who build the new UA and BA seats in both B/C and F/C among many others like JAL's B/C, Korean, etc. AA MD80 F/C and B762 F/C and B/C are B/E seats.
This version was made with thinner furniture (walls) and narrower to increase the density because an aircraft/airline operates or is subject to economies of density more than economies of scale. Though it is really not a lot different in orientation than the VS/NZ/DL/AC seats it is reportedly a lot less popular and that customers don't like it, too flimsy, tight, etc. An even bigger fiasco was the coach cabin where they could not get the seat 16G certified and had to put an airbelt on every single seat in the coach cabin (usually they are specialty applications like a bulkhead row, etc).
End result is that CX is ripping them all off the aircraft and replacing it with Cirrus. The word is their product team got sacked as someone noted. Fall guys probably, because it takes so many people to make a program like this happen its usually hard to pin the blame on any one area and senior management always approves all this stuff.
You will almost certainly see more Cirrus seats on more major carriers. Sicma is not really a top tier supplier, but they are owned by Zodiac who also owns Weber here in the US (Gainseville, TX) who is a huge supplier especially of coach seats (new AA B737 and B757 and as much as 50% of all B787 orders). Weber will probably make all Cirrus seats sold in the Americas. [some would say] Weber is a lot stronger on the production side than Sicma.
Cirrus is serviceable; I would not call it great. It solves some of the shortcomings of the VS herringbone, but is deficient to it in other ways. I think CX went that way because it was readily available and supplied a similar level of product (flat, 100% aisle access, etc) as their current product and did not face away from the windows, but it is not revolutionary by any stretch."
NZ built it under license. Contour, the manufacturer then built what they call Solar Eclipse, which is built off the Eclipse angled flat mechanism platform. Solar Eclipse had a much better mechanism and you don't have to get out the seat to lay flat in bed mode, also it has a legrest (which VS does not) with more adjustability to get into "Z" positions etc.
Contour sold this improved version to AC, DL, Jet, etc. VS then sued for patent infringement and they have been arguing ever since. Contour won the first judgment and VS won the appeal. It is now going before the EU patent officials and possibly the UK Supreme Court. [some consider VS's case to be flimsy], [but they have been ardent and persistent and appear] to have convinced the appeals judge they invented that residual conehead shaped space between the window wall and seat furniture.
CX's current seat was introduced in late 2006. It is also a herringbone, but unlike the others it was built by B/E Aerospace who build the new UA and BA seats in both B/C and F/C among many others like JAL's B/C, Korean, etc. AA MD80 F/C and B762 F/C and B/C are B/E seats.
This version was made with thinner furniture (walls) and narrower to increase the density because an aircraft/airline operates or is subject to economies of density more than economies of scale. Though it is really not a lot different in orientation than the VS/NZ/DL/AC seats it is reportedly a lot less popular and that customers don't like it, too flimsy, tight, etc. An even bigger fiasco was the coach cabin where they could not get the seat 16G certified and had to put an airbelt on every single seat in the coach cabin (usually they are specialty applications like a bulkhead row, etc).
End result is that CX is ripping them all off the aircraft and replacing it with Cirrus. The word is their product team got sacked as someone noted. Fall guys probably, because it takes so many people to make a program like this happen its usually hard to pin the blame on any one area and senior management always approves all this stuff.
You will almost certainly see more Cirrus seats on more major carriers. Sicma is not really a top tier supplier, but they are owned by Zodiac who also owns Weber here in the US (Gainseville, TX) who is a huge supplier especially of coach seats (new AA B737 and B757 and as much as 50% of all B787 orders). Weber will probably make all Cirrus seats sold in the Americas. [some would say] Weber is a lot stronger on the production side than Sicma.
Cirrus is serviceable; I would not call it great. It solves some of the shortcomings of the VS herringbone, but is deficient to it in other ways. I think CX went that way because it was readily available and supplied a similar level of product (flat, 100% aisle access, etc) as their current product and did not face away from the windows, but it is not revolutionary by any stretch."
#137
Join Date: Jun 2002
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I'm still curious what will happen to the 757s on TATL services. Will these get a new seat?
#139
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If they want it done by 2015, they don't have a lot of time, do they?
I would imagine that given that UA/CO has been flying lie-flat B/E Diamonds in 757s for years, and AA has them in their AFS A321s, there's a pretty easy solution close at hand...
I would imagine that given that UA/CO has been flying lie-flat B/E Diamonds in 757s for years, and AA has them in their AFS A321s, there's a pretty easy solution close at hand...
#140
Join Date: Nov 2003
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#142
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"Veal chutes" is the greatest! ! I was surprised last week when I found those very same veal chutes on EY JNB-AUH.
#143
Join Date: Sep 2011
Programs: AA SPG Amex
Posts: 4,644
It is very unusual for any operator to invest -any- money in 763s at this point-- they are already considered "past tense" in the industry and even this investment by AA is only under the circumstances of the delays to the 787 and a couple of other delays.
As mentioned above, the *only* reason AA is even doing this is:
"AA did not want to retrofit any of the 767s business class wise, but the trans-Atlantic agreement with BA and Iberia required that by 2015 all business seat over the Atlantic be fully flat. The 767s are not going to be retired fast enough to make the fully flat goal, so about 25 of them are having the Thompson Solutions seat installed."
As mentioned above, the *only* reason AA is even doing this is:
"AA did not want to retrofit any of the 767s business class wise, but the trans-Atlantic agreement with BA and Iberia required that by 2015 all business seat over the Atlantic be fully flat. The 767s are not going to be retired fast enough to make the fully flat goal, so about 25 of them are having the Thompson Solutions seat installed."
Not exactly sure what "Let's hope it's not a zero-sum game" means in this context (not saying it's not a reasonable concern, just no idea personally what it means!)
But, yes, a benefit for sure as a result of the JBV, although the hope was clearly to be providing same on a mix of 77Ws, refurbed 772s-- which will be getting yet another, different, J-seat from this one and a sprinkling of 787s by then, -not- to have to pour all this money into 763s at this point. AA had written off the 763s in terms of putting any more $$ into them (beyond the basics, obviously) 3 years ago when they decided -not- to design/research a replacement seat for NGBC on 763 while at the same time researching same for 772 and 787. 77w came along so quickly that they never even had a chance to do anything other than Cirrus seat, line-fit by Boeing.
But, yes, a benefit for sure as a result of the JBV, although the hope was clearly to be providing same on a mix of 77Ws, refurbed 772s-- which will be getting yet another, different, J-seat from this one and a sprinkling of 787s by then, -not- to have to pour all this money into 763s at this point. AA had written off the 763s in terms of putting any more $$ into them (beyond the basics, obviously) 3 years ago when they decided -not- to design/research a replacement seat for NGBC on 763 while at the same time researching same for 772 and 787. 77w came along so quickly that they never even had a chance to do anything other than Cirrus seat, line-fit by Boeing.
Oh, and as far as "zero sum game" I think that referred to a hope that the total number of AA-operated J seats would remain constant, so as not to impact potential SWU use. One easy fix would be to simply have a different carrier operate some of the routes (remember when AA used to operate BOS-LHR…).
Indeed-- changes in business class seating were somewhat subtle for many years and then when BA introduced it's radical NCW design (competing with VS at the time) it set off an unending frenzy of new, cool, designs. Business class arms-race has and will continue to benefit fliers for years to come as some/many of them are more comfortable than F was a very short time ago while being many times more space-effcient.
In fact, I recall that when VS introduced its "Premium Economy" several decades ago, it was dimensionally quite similar to other carriers' J at the time. Perhaps a few inches less pitch, but overall a very similar seat.
I would imagine that AA will make JFK-MAD a 763 on a more permanent basis and either upgrade the second CDG flight to a 763 or perhaps arrange to shift one of the OpenSkies EWR flights to JFK and then decide whether to permanently upgrade ORD-MAN or make it seasonal and finally whether to keep the seasonal JFK-DUB.
Well, see JonNYC's comment above about the 763; this only makes sense if AA plans to keep the 757s in service. I'm sure there's been a report/release about this which I just haven't seen, so I think it's an easy question to answer, but I just know some of them are pretty old and probably ripe for retirement.
#144
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To my knowledge the only thing to go on is that AA has made no mention of refitting 75L and a little bit of common sense mixed in makes me think they'll be going away-- but 100% personal speculation on that.
As far as J-seating for AA 787, the lack of built in IFE on these and a few other factors cause me to think we'll see new seats in AA 787.
As far as J-seating for AA 787, the lack of built in IFE on these and a few other factors cause me to think we'll see new seats in AA 787.
#145
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It's the same seat as Swiss. It's horrible! Very disappointed.
#146
Join Date: Sep 2011
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To my knowledge the only thing to go on is that AA has made no mention of refitting 75L and a little bit of common sense mixed in makes me think they'll be going away-- but 100% personal speculation on that.
As far as J-seating for AA 787, the lack of built in IFE on these and a few other factors cause me to think we'll see new seats in AA 787.
As far as J-seating for AA 787, the lack of built in IFE on these and a few other factors cause me to think we'll see new seats in AA 787.
So do you think AA will decide to keep them around a bit longer to handle HI, and short-haul, lower (passenger) yield, cargo-heavy routes?
#148
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The Thompson design is actually the most efficient fully flat seat for a 767 since you retain 100% aisle access. As the seat is installed on other aircraft the direct aisle access goes down, about 90% for A330, about 80% for 777, etc.
Last edited by JonNYC; Mar 8, 2014 at 9:54 am
#149
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The seats are built for IFE; the fact that AA chooses not to install it (if true, it's a terrible, terrible choice) doesn't mean that it cannot be inserted at a later time at a far cheaper cost than buying a completely new seat.
Last edited by hillrider; Mar 8, 2014 at 11:40 am Reason: corrected can -> cannot