richarddd

I don't see a good argument that the miles are other than an unsecured claim. Even if they're an executory contract, the contract can be rejected. Trying to boot-strap into a post-petition contract breach claim seems a real stretch. According to FWAAA, the bankruptcy judge approved AA's general operation of the AAdvantage program and AA can treat old mile separately. That said, the odds in litigation are never better than 90/10, so if it's worthwhile, give it a shot.

A PR campaign may have a higher chance of success, but airlines frequently devalue frequent flyer programs. How many times have they reversed such decisions?

I'm not saying what they've done is right (it isn't) or that you shouldn't fight if you're so inclined. I just wouldn't invest too much in the efforts.

corky

I have tried to print out the old ward charts that have been linked recently & they are in mice print so unreadable. Does anyone have a clearer link? Also--I know that miles began expiring in 1990 but is that also when the new award levels went into place?

gemac

The action you can take to prevent the conversion is to use the miles before November 1.

sbedelman

I think you are right except for two things.

First, I'm unaware of any changes to a program where the airline had expressly agreed not to make that change.

Had AA not specifically agreed that the miles would not expire and that they could be used to redeem from the old chart then it would be different. But they did. Of course bankruptcy is all about getting out from under your obligations in return for a better good.

Second, they way the notice is worded I find it hard to read as anything but a new deal that is already in place and that we have until Nov 1 to use our old miles under this new deal against the old chart. So if they refuse to allow us to do so (which I'd assert includes refusing to allow an upgrade to F where that is what the award entitles you to or requiring a different fare when that isn't a condition of the award) then the breach is post-petition.

All they need to do to cure is that is to allow those holding old miles to use them per the conditions of the award. Whether the issue is bad training or a willful desire to not fulfill the terms of this new offer I can't say, but either way customers have a right to expect that they will receive what the award says they should.

corky

I tried to decipher the old awards--God they made things complicated. Anyway, I don't see anywhere first class tickets to Hawaii. Where they offered?

BobbySteel

Full size are visible under the "actions" button on Flickr. Thx for posing corky.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8260644...n/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8260644...n/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8260644...n/photostream/

observer

I have read this thread fairly carefully and still have a few questions.

First, if one is using 75A to Hawaii, from what inventory are the seats taken? Are these PlanAhead or Anytime awards? Having the booking class code would be helpful when using Expert Flyer to search.

Second, is it clear/settled that 30A requires that the economy tickets be full Y tickets?

Third, from what inventory are the 30A upgrades taken? The "A" class inventory?

Fourth, for upgrade awards (e.g., 30A) I assume that one must book the economy flights and attach the upgrades to them. That is, one cannot collect credits of some sort (in the absence of the old certificates) and use them within, say, a year.

Finally, does anyone realistically think that AA will change its mind on the matter of old miles?

Many thanks!

QueenOfCoach

For what it's worth, I do not think AA will change. I, personally, think the change was long overdue. From a database standpoint, it's money down the drain to maintain, in perpetuity, accounts with "old miles" for people who are no longer customers. Why take up database resources for people who are no longer flying (possibly due to age or infirmity), loyally flying some other airline or are dead? The postage, alone, in mailing statements to customers who have had no activity since 1990 would amount to a lot of money. Money for nothing.

By making miles, all miles, expire after a given period of inactivity, accounts will be maintained only for people actively engaged in business with AA, an airline partner or other business partner.

Most people with an appreciable number of "old miles" will have taken their awards from the old award chart by now. The number who still have enough "old miles" for an award are probably a tiny fraction of the AAdvantage customer universe.

I cannot imagine AA reversing itself on this decision. They might offer an extended time period to use the "old miles" against the old award chart, but in my opinion as a database adminstrator and analyst it makes perfect sense to spend money maintaining accounts only for active customers and not spend money on people who are inactive or dead.

corky

Thanks, I do appreciate you posting this. Some of the problem is that the Flicker stuff obscures the top part of the paper. It does look like 2 F tickets to Hawaii can be had for 75,000 miles though. Did anyone ever determine through all the crazy wording if these are capacity controlled or not?

kayjay

I guess wife and I are among the tiny fraction who have not taken all of their awards from the old chart. We have been too busy earning new miles. If you were familiar with the order of usage, you would know that new miles are used to offset new awards. We have not had to use "old miles for most of our post 89 awards.

For your further enlightenment wife and I did most of our pre 89 flying at full fare coach or first. Between us we have earned over 4 million AA miles and still have 250K "old miles and 600K new miles in the bank.

We may be among that tiny fraction that you belittle, but we have been and continue to be loyal and profitable AA members. WE DESERVE BETTER than what AA is offering, regardless of the reason for discontinuing the "old program

brp

But it doesn't look like you're going to get it so, justified or not, whining here isn't going to change things. Writing to AA probably won't, but will be more effective than here. Doing something with those miles before they get merged would, of course, be the best alternative.

Since the disenfranchised are likely a small fraction of AAdvantage members (as noted), I can see where it is in AA's corporate interest to do this (as noted) even though it may not be popular with that minuscule demographic of even particularly above board.

Cheers.

kayjay

I did not say it wasn't in AA's best interest to do away with the old miles program. I did not whine about it but was commenting on a poster's belittling comment. I have every right to post my opinion on this board even if I am a minority of one (two with my wife). I may or may not have written to AA, that is my business. I may or may not use some of the old mile awards by November, again that is my business. I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO POST MY OPINION regardless of whatever other action I may or may not have taken.

Exactly what have you posted of any constructive worth in this thread.

brp

The OP itself as well as the suggestion that they should keep the unexpiring miles, but have them used first for all redemptions. Is that exact enough?

Only a couple of other posts, and those were just amusement at the level of outrage here over this change.

Note that we all have rights to post opinions about what is said in this thread.

Cheers.

dayone

Overreact much?

1. brp did not question your "right" (actually, it's more of a permission, if you read the TOS) to post.
2. Whether your post is a "whine" is open to interpretation (to me, it is).
3. brp has a long record of informative and worthwhile posts. It can be argued that sometimes he's a bit too tolerant of lazy posters, but that's a small fault.

Ord Liza

My understanding is that AA entered into a contract pursuant to which it agreed that One) these miles would not expire and Two) these miles could continue to be used according to the old award chart. I have not confirmed that this is factually correct, but let's assume it is for the sake of argument and because it seems to be accepted in this thread. Also, put aside for now the questions of whether or not BK changes AA's rights viv-a-vis these miles (because I don't know the impact of bankruptcy here and in any event I am not addressing whether or not AA has the legal right). Also put aside the argument that AA has an ongoing, broad reservation of the right to change the program (both for the foregoing reason and because in general the specific has priority over the more general).

You may be 100% correct in your statements about "money down the drain" and what "makes sense", but all of the arguments you express were known at the time AA entered into the contract. People die, people stop flying, people stop flying AA in favor of other airlines - none of these were tough to foresee; they are just arguments against entering into the agreement in the first place. So AA made what turned out to be a bad deal for it - not the first time nor the last. I guess if you aren't happy with the deal you made, whether because it was a bad deal from the beginning or because it just became so, just renege on it.