Miles "with no expiration" to be converted to normal miles, with 25% bonus Nov 1 2012
Jul 20, 2012, 12:07 pm
#181
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,439
Jul 20, 2012, 12:23 pm
#182
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,411
I knew Mike Gunn (indirectly) and I had a certain impression of AA as a company. I am not "shocked" as a practical matter, but I am disappointed that the offer is relatively nominal. I have not followed the bankruptcy filings, but I am not sure that this has been addressed. Even if they "reject" the executory contract, you can still make a claim as an unsecured creditor for damages from the rejection. Then it is up to the judge to decide the value of the claim and to put you into the pool with other unsecured creditors. Does the AA plan say that they are paying less than 100 cents on the dollar to general unsecured creditors in this Chapter 11 case?
Jul 20, 2012, 2:19 pm
#183
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 37
American's announcement is an arrogant ripoff
I have spent much of the last week analyzing the impact of American's announcement. Here are two examples of what this change means:
1. According to the award schedule associated with non-expiring miles, I can cash in 75,000 of my non-expiring miles for two free round-trip First Class tickets between any two points in the 48 contiguous states, Canada, the Caribbean, Mexico, Bermuda and the Caribbean. To get that same award using expiring miles I’d need a minimum of 160,000 miles.
American says it’s going to give me a 25% bonus upon conversion of my miles, meaning that post-conversion, my 75,000 non-expiring miles will transmute into around 95,000 expiring miles. Putting it all together, I’m going to be 65,000 miles short (160,000-95,000) of getting what I used to be able to get for 75,000 non-expiring miles. At the risk of over-dramatizing, I presently have 237,000 non-expiring miles. If I were of a mind to do so, I could fork over 225,000 of those miles for three of these awards, i.e .six free domestic first class round-trips. Thus, under the expiring miles regime, I’d be 195,000 miles short.
2. Under the schedule for non-expiring miles, there’s a 40,000, mile award that gives you an upgrade on any round trip economy class ticket to business class between the US and Belgium, France, Germany, UK, Spain, Sweden or Switzerland. Under the schedule for expiring miles, you can upgrade from “most discount economy” for 25,000 miles and $350 each way. Thus, a round-trip upgrade to business class using expiring miles would require 50,000 miles and $700.
If you add the 25% “bonus” to 40,000 non-expiring miles, you have a wash on the mileage front. However, using expiring miles for one of these awards is also going to cost you $700 that you wouldn’t otherwise have had to pay.
I haven’t made all of the possible comparisons (some defy apples-to-apples treatment). I’d bet, however, that in no case does this conversion put any holder of non-expiring miles in a better position than he/she was before Ms. Rubin brought the ceiling crashing down on them
Since receiving the announcement, I have also heard from four other similarly situated holders of non-expiring miles. Collectively, the five of us have approximately 975,000. While you obviously can't extrapolate from this fact with any scientific accuracy, it seems safe to say that American is withdrawing the benefits applicable to tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of miles.
Even given the savings to American, what's the motivation behind this seismic change? Why risk the affections and loyalties of your most loyal customers?
Might the answer be that some merger suitor has insisted upon this pullback of important benefits as a condition of marriage? It certainly isn't the desire for "streamlining" on which Ms. Rubin pins the action. (And if it were, why not "streamline" by converted everyone's miles to non-expiring?).
In a spirit of full disclosure, I have filed a small claims action against American to recover the value of my soon-to-expire-non-expiring miles vs. their worth after expiration.
Mark Steinberg
[email protected]
1. According to the award schedule associated with non-expiring miles, I can cash in 75,000 of my non-expiring miles for two free round-trip First Class tickets between any two points in the 48 contiguous states, Canada, the Caribbean, Mexico, Bermuda and the Caribbean. To get that same award using expiring miles I’d need a minimum of 160,000 miles.
American says it’s going to give me a 25% bonus upon conversion of my miles, meaning that post-conversion, my 75,000 non-expiring miles will transmute into around 95,000 expiring miles. Putting it all together, I’m going to be 65,000 miles short (160,000-95,000) of getting what I used to be able to get for 75,000 non-expiring miles. At the risk of over-dramatizing, I presently have 237,000 non-expiring miles. If I were of a mind to do so, I could fork over 225,000 of those miles for three of these awards, i.e .six free domestic first class round-trips. Thus, under the expiring miles regime, I’d be 195,000 miles short.
2. Under the schedule for non-expiring miles, there’s a 40,000, mile award that gives you an upgrade on any round trip economy class ticket to business class between the US and Belgium, France, Germany, UK, Spain, Sweden or Switzerland. Under the schedule for expiring miles, you can upgrade from “most discount economy” for 25,000 miles and $350 each way. Thus, a round-trip upgrade to business class using expiring miles would require 50,000 miles and $700.
If you add the 25% “bonus” to 40,000 non-expiring miles, you have a wash on the mileage front. However, using expiring miles for one of these awards is also going to cost you $700 that you wouldn’t otherwise have had to pay.
I haven’t made all of the possible comparisons (some defy apples-to-apples treatment). I’d bet, however, that in no case does this conversion put any holder of non-expiring miles in a better position than he/she was before Ms. Rubin brought the ceiling crashing down on them
Since receiving the announcement, I have also heard from four other similarly situated holders of non-expiring miles. Collectively, the five of us have approximately 975,000. While you obviously can't extrapolate from this fact with any scientific accuracy, it seems safe to say that American is withdrawing the benefits applicable to tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of miles.
Even given the savings to American, what's the motivation behind this seismic change? Why risk the affections and loyalties of your most loyal customers?
Might the answer be that some merger suitor has insisted upon this pullback of important benefits as a condition of marriage? It certainly isn't the desire for "streamlining" on which Ms. Rubin pins the action. (And if it were, why not "streamline" by converted everyone's miles to non-expiring?).
In a spirit of full disclosure, I have filed a small claims action against American to recover the value of my soon-to-expire-non-expiring miles vs. their worth after expiration.
Mark Steinberg
[email protected]
Jul 20, 2012, 6:17 pm
#184
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 650
Bump
I have read this thread fairly carefully and still have a few questions.
First, if one is using 75A to Hawaii, from what inventory are the seats taken? Are these PlanAhead or Anytime awards? Having the booking class code would be helpful when using Expert Flyer to search.
Second, is it clear/settled that 30A requires that the economy tickets be full Y tickets?
Third, from what inventory are the 30A upgrades taken? The "A" class inventory?
Fourth, for upgrade awards (e.g., 30A) I assume that one must book the economy flights and attach the upgrades to them. That is, one cannot collect credits of some sort (in the absence of the old certificates) and use them within, say, a year.
Finally, does anyone realistically think that AA will change its mind on the matter of old miles?
Many thanks!
First, if one is using 75A to Hawaii, from what inventory are the seats taken? Are these PlanAhead or Anytime awards? Having the booking class code would be helpful when using Expert Flyer to search.
Second, is it clear/settled that 30A requires that the economy tickets be full Y tickets?
Third, from what inventory are the 30A upgrades taken? The "A" class inventory?
Fourth, for upgrade awards (e.g., 30A) I assume that one must book the economy flights and attach the upgrades to them. That is, one cannot collect credits of some sort (in the absence of the old certificates) and use them within, say, a year.
Finally, does anyone realistically think that AA will change its mind on the matter of old miles?
Many thanks!
Jul 20, 2012, 6:22 pm
#185
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 37
Here is a letter from May 13, 1987, signed by Mike Gunn, Sr. Vice President (emphasis in original):
Does that change anyones analysis?
This related specifically to some changes relating to certain awards, including 50,000 miles for "one free first class ticket plus a companion upgrade to first class for North American travel including travel to/from Hawaii"
Although we must reserve the right to make changes to the AAdvantage Award structure, you have our absolute committment that those changes will apply prospectively only - - - that is any change we make will not have an adverse impact on your ability to claim awards on American Airlines with the miles you have already earned.
Does that change anyones analysis?
This related specifically to some changes relating to certain awards, including 50,000 miles for "one free first class ticket plus a companion upgrade to first class for North American travel including travel to/from Hawaii"
Jul 20, 2012, 6:41 pm
#186
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 37
Here's a page from a 1989 Gunn letter announcing end of expiring miles
Title should read: "non-expiring miles"
Dear AAdvantage Member;
The AAdvantage program offers you a wide range of travel award options. And because you enrolled in the program before 1989, youTl continue to enjoy these choices in the the future.
You'll notice that the enclosed Mileage Summary separates the miles you earned through June 30, 1989, from those you earned beginning July 1. There's a very important reason for this separation. Miles you earned through June 300, 1989, are not subject to expiration [bold in original] and offer you the flexibility to use them in any of the following ways:
Continue to claim awards from the Regular AAdvantage award structure, a complete list of which is attached to this letter.
Choose from PlanAhead™ awards , many of which are available at deeplydiscounted mileage levels, or AAnytime awards. You’ll find these awards described in the enclosed AAdvantage Program Brochure or on the back of your Mileage Summary.
Choose from either structure. Or, you can even combine miles earned before
June 30, 1989 , with miles earned beginning July 1, 1989 [bold in original], to claim PlanAAhead or AAnytune awards.
Dear AAdvantage Member;
The AAdvantage program offers you a wide range of travel award options. And because you enrolled in the program before 1989, youTl continue to enjoy these choices in the the future.
You'll notice that the enclosed Mileage Summary separates the miles you earned through June 30, 1989, from those you earned beginning July 1. There's a very important reason for this separation. Miles you earned through June 300, 1989, are not subject to expiration [bold in original] and offer you the flexibility to use them in any of the following ways:
Continue to claim awards from the Regular AAdvantage award structure, a complete list of which is attached to this letter.
Choose from PlanAhead™ awards , many of which are available at deeplydiscounted mileage levels, or AAnytime awards. You’ll find these awards described in the enclosed AAdvantage Program Brochure or on the back of your Mileage Summary.
Choose from either structure. Or, you can even combine miles earned before
June 30, 1989 , with miles earned beginning July 1, 1989 [bold in original], to claim PlanAAhead or AAnytune awards.
Last edited by mark4009; Jul 20, 2012 at 6:58 pm Reason: typo
Jul 20, 2012, 6:44 pm
#187
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 37
Anyone have an announcement/description of the original AAdvantage program, i.e. in 1981?
Jul 20, 2012, 11:06 pm
#188
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: TUL
Programs: AA GLD,DL,UA
Posts: 306
In reading all this discussion, I have to admit that AA didn't handle this well. Unfortunately, this less than wise decision may be representative of a deteriorating management capability. A wiser decision would have been something like a 25% bonus for less than 10,000 old miles (which is nice bonus for not having enough to get an old award), 50% bonus to 50,000 miles, 75% to 100,000 miles, and 100% after that. This would have quieted and satisfied those with piles of old miles, cleared the database, reduced reporting, and simplified operations. At the same time it may cost AA nothing. Why? Because anyone with 50,000+ old miles probably has boatloads (or is it "planefulls"?) of regular miles. So the extra miles over the 25% would be getting added to the very end of the customers account. All other miles would have to be used first before those are used and have any value. All kinds of things could happen to could prevent that from happening. And even if they are used, by then they will likely have less value.
Jul 20, 2012, 11:40 pm
#189
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 889
In a spirit of full disclosure, I have filed a small claims action against American to recover the value of my soon-to-expire-non-expiring miles vs. their worth after expiration.
Mark Steinberg
[email protected]
Mark Steinberg
[email protected]
Are you making separate claims for the imposition of an expiration, their refusal to honor the chart even now before November, both or something completely different?
Finally, what how do you intend to address the fact that the defendant is in bankruptcy? I'm sure that AA will ask to stay your lawsuit pending resolution. Are you just going to wait or do you have an argument that would allow the trial to move forward now?
Life is full of learning new things. No reason that suing a company in bankruptcy shouldn't be one of them.
Jul 21, 2012, 12:37 am
#190
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 37
Good, if somewhat premature questions all.
What I can tell you at this time is that the complaint is styled as an action for breach of contract (although there isn't much space for "styling" on a small claims court complaint form). Questions of what American can or might do to avoid either litigating the matter or satisfying any judgment will have to abide events.
What I can tell you at this time is that the complaint is styled as an action for breach of contract (although there isn't much space for "styling" on a small claims court complaint form). Questions of what American can or might do to avoid either litigating the matter or satisfying any judgment will have to abide events.
Jul 21, 2012, 6:14 am
#191
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: AUS
Programs: BAEC Gold, AA PPro, Hyatt Globalist, Amex Plat
Posts: 7,050
Regards
Jul 21, 2012, 6:19 am
#192
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: AUS
Programs: BAEC Gold, AA PPro, Hyatt Globalist, Amex Plat
Posts: 7,050
Jul 21, 2012, 6:37 am
#193
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: LGA
Programs: HHonors Diamond, AA PLT
Posts: 195
So there's an expiration to "no expiration?" 
It does not seem reasonable to me that when I am told some of my miles have no expiration to then be told, in effect, "I had my fingers crossed. We changed our minds."
AA, why should I believe anything you tell me?
[As usual with this forum having so many apologists for AA, I am fully confident of being flamed the moment I click the mouse to post this message.]
It does not seem reasonable to me that when I am told some of my miles have no expiration to then be told, in effect, "I had my fingers crossed. We changed our minds."
AA, why should I believe anything you tell me?
[As usual with this forum having so many apologists for AA, I am fully confident of being flamed the moment I click the mouse to post this message.]
Jul 21, 2012, 7:38 am
#194
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,442
Good, if somewhat premature questions all.
What I can tell you at this time is that the complaint is styled as an action for breach of contract (although there isn't much space for "styling" on a small claims court complaint form). Questions of what American can or might do to avoid either litigating the matter or satisfying any judgment will have to abide events.
What I can tell you at this time is that the complaint is styled as an action for breach of contract (although there isn't much space for "styling" on a small claims court complaint form). Questions of what American can or might do to avoid either litigating the matter or satisfying any judgment will have to abide events.
Jul 21, 2012, 8:01 am
#195
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Coppell, Texas
Posts: 1,014
With my 980,000 old miles about to take a massive hit, I have tried to use some. No Business to Europe over Christmas. No Business to Australia or New Zealand on any day in the next 7 months. So I have another 90 days to find flights and they arent making that easy.