$110 Companion Ticket Valid for COACH class only - Effective August 1st, 2012
Aug 4, 2012, 9:51 am
#526
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, Or USA
Posts: 1,800
This.
And you only need to look at the last handful of years, because that's the same time period we're talking about here with regard to removals of benefits.
Based on my ticket purchase history, here are my annual averages:
2010: 3.3 cpm
2011: 4.1 cpm
2012: 4.7 cpm
I think AS was at the top of their game at the beginning of 2010. It started sliding downhill after that, though, and really picked up steam in 2011. Now I'm paying 42% more for my flights and getting less for it.
No need to compare ticket prices in 1980 to today; compare fares in 2010 (when benefits were great) to 2012 (after 18 notable benefits had been removed).
And you only need to look at the last handful of years, because that's the same time period we're talking about here with regard to removals of benefits.
Based on my ticket purchase history, here are my annual averages:
2010: 3.3 cpm
2011: 4.1 cpm
2012: 4.7 cpm
I think AS was at the top of their game at the beginning of 2010. It started sliding downhill after that, though, and really picked up steam in 2011. Now I'm paying 42% more for my flights and getting less for it.
No need to compare ticket prices in 1980 to today; compare fares in 2010 (when benefits were great) to 2012 (after 18 notable benefits had been removed).
Aug 4, 2012, 10:19 am
#527
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 392
Can you provide a source for this? I don't know where to find Alaska's fuel costs, so all I've got to work with is oil price, which adjusted for inflation $75/barrel in 2010 and is $93/barrel now. I know that's almost certainly not what Alaska was or is paying because of hedging strategies, which is why I'm hoping you can provide a source.
Aug 4, 2012, 11:06 am
#528
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SEA
Posts: 12,485
Can you provide a source for this? I don't know where to find Alaska's fuel costs, so all I've got to work with is oil price, which adjusted for inflation $75/barrel in 2010 and is $93/barrel now. I know that's almost certainly not what Alaska was or is paying because of hedging strategies, which is why I'm hoping you can provide a source.
Commentary on AS' fuel expense can be found in its 10-K and 10-Q SEC filings: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-ed...ion=getcompany
Aug 4, 2012, 12:43 pm
#529
Moderator Communications Coordinator, Signatures
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: deep within the Eskimo lair
Programs: TubWorld, Bar Alliance, Borratxo Legendarium
Posts: 16,968
Aug 4, 2012, 1:33 pm
#530
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Over the Bay Bridge, CA
Programs: Jumbo mas
Posts: 38,654
This.
And you only need to look at the last handful of years, because that's the same time period we're talking about here with regard to removals of benefits.
Based on my ticket purchase history, here are my annual averages:
2010: 3.3 cpm
2011: 4.1 cpm
2012: 4.7 cpm
I think AS was at the top of their game at the beginning of 2010. It started sliding downhill after that, though, and really picked up steam in 2011. Now I'm paying 42% more for my flights and getting less for it.
No need to compare ticket prices in 1980 to today; compare fares in 2010 (when benefits were great) to 2012 (after 18 notable benefits had been removed).
And you only need to look at the last handful of years, because that's the same time period we're talking about here with regard to removals of benefits.
Based on my ticket purchase history, here are my annual averages:
2010: 3.3 cpm
2011: 4.1 cpm
2012: 4.7 cpm
I think AS was at the top of their game at the beginning of 2010. It started sliding downhill after that, though, and really picked up steam in 2011. Now I'm paying 42% more for my flights and getting less for it.
No need to compare ticket prices in 1980 to today; compare fares in 2010 (when benefits were great) to 2012 (after 18 notable benefits had been removed).
The AS chips and clunks are affecting a lot of people who spend buckets more than the quoted poster. In fact, the clunk that is the subject of this post is more likely to put a 4.7 CPM passenger in an F seat than someone who will pay $1K for the same F seat ($2K/2)
This is why I think there should be a revenue alternative for status. The poor shmo that needs to fly, i.e., SFO/PDX for business 2x/mo on a "not cheapest fare" basis will be spending a modest $800/mo for the pleasure (not even close to full Y) - x12, that's $9600 a year and won't even be MVPG. At least that person had the consolation of getting a web/Visa booking bonus until a few days ago, to make the spend a little more palatable.
I'd venture to say that a lot of people on the AS/QX shorter haul route network have a fairly high CPM, don't have much of a choice, and feel like the proctologist has come to visit, each time they get a new email or love letter from the eskimo.
Aug 4, 2012, 5:57 pm
#531
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: portland, oregon
Programs: alaska, united, air france, lufthansa,delta, starwood
Posts: 382
I hate to say it (well, hate is such a strong word) but with those stats, no airline could ever stay in business. There is nothing wrong with what you do, i.e., maximizing your benefits on the lowest fares, but it is sort of like Romney not paying any taxes and living in luxury. I don't even come close to those stats when paying what I consider to be a cheap fare, i.e., SFO/SEA for around $200 RT. I suppose, fortunately for the airline industry, mileage runners obtaining the best CPM bang for the buck and then redeeming the benefits on premium international travel, upgrades, etc., are few and far between. In fact, most of the people flying on the lowest fares and bargain shopping the most don't even belong to a mileage program, or have orphan miles all over the place.
The AS chips and clunks are affecting a lot of people who spend buckets more than the quoted poster. In fact, the clunk that is the subject of this post is more likely to put a 4.7 CPM passenger in an F seat than someone who will pay $1K for the same F seat ($2K/2)
This is why I think there should be a revenue alternative for status. The poor shmo that needs to fly, i.e., SFO/PDX for business 2x/mo on a "not cheapest fare" basis will be spending a modest $800/mo for the pleasure (not even close to full Y) - x12, that's $9600 a year and won't even be MVPG. At least that person had the consolation of getting a web/Visa booking bonus until a few days ago, to make the spend a little more palatable.
I'd venture to say that a lot of people on the AS/QX shorter haul route network have a fairly high CPM, don't have much of a choice, and feel like the proctologist has come to visit, each time they get a new email or love letter from the eskimo.
The AS chips and clunks are affecting a lot of people who spend buckets more than the quoted poster. In fact, the clunk that is the subject of this post is more likely to put a 4.7 CPM passenger in an F seat than someone who will pay $1K for the same F seat ($2K/2)
This is why I think there should be a revenue alternative for status. The poor shmo that needs to fly, i.e., SFO/PDX for business 2x/mo on a "not cheapest fare" basis will be spending a modest $800/mo for the pleasure (not even close to full Y) - x12, that's $9600 a year and won't even be MVPG. At least that person had the consolation of getting a web/Visa booking bonus until a few days ago, to make the spend a little more palatable.
I'd venture to say that a lot of people on the AS/QX shorter haul route network have a fairly high CPM, don't have much of a choice, and feel like the proctologist has come to visit, each time they get a new email or love letter from the eskimo.
The airline industry is notoriously fickle and rides waves of feasts or famines. Warren Buffet once said that somebody should have shot Wilbur and Orville Wright at Kitty Hawk because since their time, the industry as a whole has lost money.
The use of a companion certificate to buy into F is not the cause-one way or the other-of Alaska's current financial situation. In fact, Alaska is regarded by most aviation financial analysts as being one of the best, or the best, airline in the country to invest in.
Aug 4, 2012, 9:30 pm
#532
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: MVP Gold
Posts: 78
While correlated to the commonly referenced WTI oil, jet fuel has not fallen nearly as far.
Commentary on AS' fuel expense can be found in its 10-K and 10-Q SEC filings: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-ed...ion=getcompany
Commentary on AS' fuel expense can be found in its 10-K and 10-Q SEC filings: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-ed...ion=getcompany
Aug 4, 2012, 10:50 pm
#533
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,196
I hate to say it (well, hate is such a strong word) but with those stats, no airline could ever stay in business. There is nothing wrong with what you do, i.e., maximizing your benefits on the lowest fares, but it is sort of like Romney not paying any taxes and living in luxury.
On that note, I don't pretend to be Alaska's most profitable customer. I do, however, fill seats that would otherwise go empty (if I am filling seats that would otherwise go out with higher fares, then the revenue management department is not doing its job) and paying anywhere from 3-4x or so what it actually costs Alaska to load me in that otherwise empty (key words: otherwise empty) seat, so I am not a money drain.
If airlines could fill all the seats on their planes with full Y fares, they wouldn't run any sale fares. However, they can't, and so they file cheap fares to fill seats that are otherwise going empty. Math I did a couple of years ago indicates that Alaska's actual cost to put someone in an otherwise-empty seat works out to about 10% of the full Y fare (perhaps not coincidentally, this is what buddy pass riders pay), so as long as you are paying more than 10% of the full Y fare, Alaska is not actually losing money on you.
If any AS employees are that cheesed off about my revenue ratio, then they should be glad I've switched mostly over to UA--and they probably shouldn't nonrev anymore, either, since that's even worse for their company than my travel (which pays for the fuel burn I use, the sodas I drink, the [very little] employee time to deal with me, and still leaves AS with a couple thousand or so bucks).
Last edited by jackal; Aug 4, 2012 at 10:58 pm
Aug 5, 2012, 9:45 am
#534
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, Or USA
Posts: 1,800
The point made in my post was that fares have gone up.
On that note, I don't pretend to be Alaska's most profitable customer. I do, however, fill seats that would otherwise go empty (if I am filling seats that would otherwise go out with higher fares, then the revenue management department is not doing its job) and paying anywhere from 3-4x or so what it actually costs Alaska to load me in that otherwise empty (key words: otherwise empty) seat, so I am not a money drain.
If airlines could fill all the seats on their planes with full Y fares, they wouldn't run any sale fares. However, they can't, and so they file cheap fares to fill seats that are otherwise going empty. Math I did a couple of years ago indicates that Alaska's actual cost to put someone in an otherwise-empty seat works out to about 10% of the full Y fare (perhaps not coincidentally, this is what buddy pass riders pay), so as long as you are paying more than 10% of the full Y fare, Alaska is not actually losing money on you.
If any AS employees are that cheesed off about my revenue ratio, then they should be glad I've switched mostly over to UA--and they probably shouldn't nonrev anymore, either, since that's even worse for their company than my travel (which pays for the fuel burn I use, the sodas I drink, the [very little] employee time to deal with me, and still leaves AS with a couple thousand or so bucks).
On that note, I don't pretend to be Alaska's most profitable customer. I do, however, fill seats that would otherwise go empty (if I am filling seats that would otherwise go out with higher fares, then the revenue management department is not doing its job) and paying anywhere from 3-4x or so what it actually costs Alaska to load me in that otherwise empty (key words: otherwise empty) seat, so I am not a money drain.
If airlines could fill all the seats on their planes with full Y fares, they wouldn't run any sale fares. However, they can't, and so they file cheap fares to fill seats that are otherwise going empty. Math I did a couple of years ago indicates that Alaska's actual cost to put someone in an otherwise-empty seat works out to about 10% of the full Y fare (perhaps not coincidentally, this is what buddy pass riders pay), so as long as you are paying more than 10% of the full Y fare, Alaska is not actually losing money on you.
If any AS employees are that cheesed off about my revenue ratio, then they should be glad I've switched mostly over to UA--and they probably shouldn't nonrev anymore, either, since that's even worse for their company than my travel (which pays for the fuel burn I use, the sodas I drink, the [very little] employee time to deal with me, and still leaves AS with a couple thousand or so bucks).
Aug 5, 2012, 11:52 am
#535
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: portland, oregon
Programs: alaska, united, air france, lufthansa,delta, starwood
Posts: 382
No, the point is the fares that YOU have paid have gone up. Which more suggests AS has not needed to discount those last marginal seats as much. Which coincides with the improving load factors. This is not indicative of movement of fares in general. I can say from MY experiences fares have not gone up 42% in 2 years.
Aug 5, 2012, 12:51 pm
#536
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Alaska
Programs: Alaska MVPG
Posts: 265
We can all agree that improving load factors causes more expensive tickets. It's not hard to extrapolate that the 2% or less of Alaska VISA cardholders who used their companion certificate to fly F class was not hurting Alaska's bottom line so significantly as to have Alaska change its policy and create a pool of very angry (former) customers. Heck, even in the face of more expensive tickets, those paying for one full fare F class ticket were paying some of the highest CPM of those on the aircraft. Those people won't be paying as much in the future. Alaska made a very bad decision.
In the big scheme of things, Alaska's decision is very short sighted from a public relations basis. In this day and age, airlines can use all the positive PR they can get; just check the weekend headlines.
Aug 6, 2012, 10:14 am
#537
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 149
We've gotten a bit off point. But, as a recent poster noted, there are mileage runners (like myself) who - I believe - continue to see mileage programs as a means to rack up miles to exchange for great trips for themselves, their family members, and their friends.
For me, until Alaska/BOA did away with the 1000 mile booking bonus, it's been a great year. I'm on my second of three trips to Fort Lauderdale. With the bonuses, about 18,000 miles earned per round trip (excluding the miles earned at dining program partners on each trip.) I also earned great bonuses on other promotional flights to Philadelphia and Kansas City. I have two trips set for San Antonio in October.
I once met Jackal on a flight from Orlando. My earlier years were spent mostly on Continental and am a lifetime top tier on United. As, I'm sure, Jackal is learning - what you give up on non-stops with United, you gain in points - sometimes several thousand more on trans cons from Seattle on United compared to Alaska.
The 75 Gold bonus, promotional bonuses to new destinations, and the 1000 point booking bonuses have made this a great year. We'll see what next year brings.
And, while I've always used my companion fare coupon, neither I or any of my friends have ever used it to purchase a first class ticket. Recently, two friends purchased two coach tickets from Bellingham to Honolulu and used the two coupons for their kids. One friend paid $150 each way for upgrades. Anything comparable to this experience on United?
For me, until Alaska/BOA did away with the 1000 mile booking bonus, it's been a great year. I'm on my second of three trips to Fort Lauderdale. With the bonuses, about 18,000 miles earned per round trip (excluding the miles earned at dining program partners on each trip.) I also earned great bonuses on other promotional flights to Philadelphia and Kansas City. I have two trips set for San Antonio in October.
I once met Jackal on a flight from Orlando. My earlier years were spent mostly on Continental and am a lifetime top tier on United. As, I'm sure, Jackal is learning - what you give up on non-stops with United, you gain in points - sometimes several thousand more on trans cons from Seattle on United compared to Alaska.
The 75 Gold bonus, promotional bonuses to new destinations, and the 1000 point booking bonuses have made this a great year. We'll see what next year brings.
And, while I've always used my companion fare coupon, neither I or any of my friends have ever used it to purchase a first class ticket. Recently, two friends purchased two coach tickets from Bellingham to Honolulu and used the two coupons for their kids. One friend paid $150 each way for upgrades. Anything comparable to this experience on United?
Aug 6, 2012, 10:36 am
#538
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: portland, oregon
Programs: alaska, united, air france, lufthansa,delta, starwood
Posts: 382
We've gotten a bit off point. But, as a recent poster noted, there are mileage runners (like myself) who - I believe - continue to see mileage programs as a means to rack up miles to exchange for great trips for themselves, their family members, and their friends.
For me, until Alaska/BOA did away with the 1000 mile booking bonus, it's been a great year. I'm on my second of three trips to Fort Lauderdale. With the bonuses, about 18,000 miles earned per round trip (excluding the miles earned at dining program partners on each trip.) I also earned great bonuses on other promotional flights to Philadelphia and Kansas City. I have two trips set for San Antonio in October.
I once met Jackal on a flight from Orlando. My earlier years were spent mostly on Continental and am a lifetime top tier on United. As, I'm sure, Jackal is learning - what you give up on non-stops with United, you gain in points - sometimes several thousand more on trans cons from Seattle on United compared to Alaska.
The 75 Gold bonus, promotional bonuses to new destinations, and the 1000 point booking bonuses have made this a great year. We'll see what next year brings.
And, while I've always used my companion fare coupon, neither I or any of my friends have ever used it to purchase a first class ticket. Recently, two friends purchased two coach tickets from Bellingham to Honolulu and used the two coupons for their kids. One friend paid $150 each way for upgrades. Anything comparable to this experience on United?
For me, until Alaska/BOA did away with the 1000 mile booking bonus, it's been a great year. I'm on my second of three trips to Fort Lauderdale. With the bonuses, about 18,000 miles earned per round trip (excluding the miles earned at dining program partners on each trip.) I also earned great bonuses on other promotional flights to Philadelphia and Kansas City. I have two trips set for San Antonio in October.
I once met Jackal on a flight from Orlando. My earlier years were spent mostly on Continental and am a lifetime top tier on United. As, I'm sure, Jackal is learning - what you give up on non-stops with United, you gain in points - sometimes several thousand more on trans cons from Seattle on United compared to Alaska.
The 75 Gold bonus, promotional bonuses to new destinations, and the 1000 point booking bonuses have made this a great year. We'll see what next year brings.
And, while I've always used my companion fare coupon, neither I or any of my friends have ever used it to purchase a first class ticket. Recently, two friends purchased two coach tickets from Bellingham to Honolulu and used the two coupons for their kids. One friend paid $150 each way for upgrades. Anything comparable to this experience on United?
I am waiting on Chase to get me my new business Sapphire Card so I can close out my last Alaska VISA card. B of A is unbelievably difficult w/regard to trying to convert my Alaska cards to a 0 annual fee card. The Bank apparently will require me to close out the accounts and then re-apply. Since I just got a SPG AMEX, a Chase Ink, and a Chase Sapphire to offset the loss of all 4 of my B of A Alaska VISAs, I will probably just close the accounts and be done not only with Alaska, but B of A too.
Aug 6, 2012, 11:35 am
#539
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: portland, oregon
Programs: alaska, united, air france, lufthansa,delta, starwood
Posts: 382
After 1.5 hours talking to B of A people, I was able to close my 2 consumer accounts and have them converted to a card with no annual fee and cash rewards (to preserve the lines of credit and my long duration w/them). As to the 2 business cards, they say that they cannot do the same and I would have to close the accounts and reapply through Telesales. Unlike Chase, they do not have a conversion department. So, those cards will simply be closed.
Aug 6, 2012, 11:38 am
#540
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Over the Bay Bridge, CA
Programs: Jumbo mas
Posts: 38,654
After 1.5 hours talking to B of A people, I was able to close my 2 consumer accounts and have them converted to a card with no annual fee and cash rewards (to preserve the lines of credit and my long duration w/them). As to the 2 business cards, they say that they cannot do the same and I would have to close the accounts and reapply through Telesales. Unlike Chase, they do not have a conversion department. So, those cards will simply be closed.