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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:33 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: irishguy28
Introduction

As you have been following the past thread, the Flying Blue programme will change as of 1 April 2018. In order to split the discussion from the earlier thread, we have created a new thread.

On 6 November Flying Blue has organised a press conference to inform the public about the changes to the programme. In addition, a mailing will be sent out to all members on the 6th and 7th of November and more information can be found on the designated website (link: https://explorefurther.flyingblue.com).

As an introduction, please find a summary of the changes below.

Please note that at the current time there is no difference expected to the benefits of the current tier.

Change 1: no more level miles, no more segments, but Experience Points

As of 1 April 2018 you will no longer earn level miles and segments per flight, but you will earn Experience Points (XP). The number of XP earned per flight depends on your cabin (multiplier times 2 for Premium Economy, 3 for business, 5 for La Premiere) and the type of flight (distinction between domestic, medium haul, long-haul 1/2/3).

For flights between 1 January – 31 March 2018 all earned level miles and segments will be converted into XP (1 segment = 7 XP; 1,000 level miles = 5 XP for members outside France). Please note that the highest conversion applies (it is not cumulative).

The number of XP required per tiers is:
- 100 for Silver;
- 180 for Gold;
- 300 for Platinum;
- 1,800 for Platinum Ultimate (in 2 years).

Please note that for current flyers who qualify on segments based on only intra-EU flights this could see an increase in the number of flights required. However, if you fly a mix if intra-EU and intercontinental (but qualify on segments), this will most likely see a reduction in the number of flights required to qualify.
For elite members, there is a roll-over of all XP above your tier threshold.

The rules for soft-landing have been extended. It is now no longer required to make at least 1 qualifying flight and in case you do not meet your threshold you will only drop one tier.

Change 2: number of miles earned dependent on fare paid (including fuel surcharge)

The number of award miles (for AF/KL/A5) earned is now depending on the fare paid (including fuel surcharge). Ivory members earn 4 miles per Euro, Silver 6, Gold 7 and Platinum 8.

Also earn award miles on AF/KL purchases (relating to seats, baggage and meals) according to the above schedule.

Earnings on partners remains as-is (based on fare class and distance flown).

Change 3: dynamic pricing of award tickets (on AF/KL/HV)

Another change will be that award tickets will have dynamic pricing, e.g. an award AMS-JFK could be more expensive than an award DUS-AMS-JFK. This is also in line with change 2, as flights from AMS are also more expensive than flights from DUS (you also earn more miles).

This also implies that we will see a difference in the number of miles required per flight. For example, an award from continental Europe to continental USA will currently set you back 25,000 miles for a one-way in economy. It does not matter if you fly to LAX or NYC, the number of miles is currently fixed. Under the new proposition, this will change. The cheaper flight (in this example: NYC) will see a slight reduction in the number of miles required, whilst LAX will see a slight increase in the number of miles required.

Furthermore, there will be a standard base level for the number of miles required per destination. As the standard revenue price increases, so does the number of award miles.

Change 4: status valid for 12 months (+ 3 months), personal membership year

FB will be moving away from membership year = calendar year (in case of upgrade of tier). Instead, FB will have an individual membership year. This means that after obtaining the higher tier, you will have 12 months to requalify. Benefit of this is that members are not bound by the calendar year (e.g. members who earn 20,000 level miles in a December of a given year and 20,000 level miles in January of the next year, do not have any benefit of their flights in case limited flights before/after).

I know some will feel that this is a significant downgrade compared to the current – at maximum – 27 months. Please note that based on FB information the majority of members (re)qualify in the last quarter of the year.

In addition, please note that for an Ivory member would like to go obtain Platinum in one year, as it will become more difficult, as (s)he will have to earn each threshold (so not 300 XP in the first year, but (100 + 180 + 300 = 580 XP). This is only applicable in the first year.

Change 5: changes to the co-branded American Express credit cards (FR/NL)

Currently you earn segments and level miles (on AF/KL purchases for Gold and Platinum card holders). This will change that you will receive additional XP when reaching your membership anniversary each year.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 2:46 pm
  #361  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum
Posts: 177
Hi there

I've read through the thread and I'm trying to work out the best way that I can keep my treasured Gold status.

Why do I want Gold? Because of the lounge benefits and also the extra luggage which is vital to me.

Currently, I qualify for Gold by taking TGV Air + a flight. Coupled to this is an AF Gold AmEx card which brings me to the 30 segments a year required for Gold.

So going forward how can I keep the status? Do I have to add in a Premium Economy or two? Is it better for me to do connecting flights such as CDG > AMS > Rome?

Appreciate the help a lot
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 2:47 pm
  #362  
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: HAG
Programs: Der 5* FTL
Posts: 8,089
Originally Posted by irishguy28
That's precisely the point!!!!

Rollover requires a "surplus".

Deciding to give ALL XPs back again in the following year is not a rollover.

It's simply not going to happen!
Going back to my wallet simile, what I was expecting that from a level you either
- "pay" the going rate of the higher level within 12 months, or
- "pay" the going rate of the current level after 12 months.

A rollover even when losing status would mean that you get to keep the "coins" you didn't use.
Separately, a soft landing means you never lose more than 1 level.

I can see your point that it's better for the airline to have you "pay" for a lower level, and "give" soft landing only to those that can't "pay".

But I do think it's a bad thing to do as it makes those who can "pay" lose out on a benefit that only those who can't pay get.
It's not the same as in current situation; everyone gets soft landing, but only those who at least maintain level get carryover.
Yes, it sucks either way if you have missed the requalification and lose your miles.


Originally Posted by irishguy28
Well, now you are being inconsistent.

Let me advance what you are appearing to say.

Let's say I am Platinum, which means I should get 300XP this year to maintain Platinum.

But let's say I only get 280XP.

Do I get a soft landing? Yes. Do I get a rollover? Yes - but you see to think the rollover should be 280, while I am saying that my "soft landing" in this case is paid for by a deduction of 180 XP

Your scheme would have me start my new Gold year with a starting total of 280XP - meaning that I only need 20XP in the next 12 months to get back to Platinum. Surely, that is *TOO* generous.

My claim is that I would start my new Gold year with (280-180XP) = 100XP. I still need 200XP to get Platinum. But I am already in a better position than in the old scheme, whereby I would have started with 0LevelMiles and 0Segments and required the full 70k/60segments.
It might be too generous. But it also means you get to enjoy another year of Platinum for getting 300XP, regardles whether it took you 11.5 months or 12.5 months, which gives you an incentive to grab those XPs anyway. Otherwise there is no point if you already know you can't get Platinum.




Originally Posted by irishguy28
But the current system IS to "penalise" everyone.

If you didn't make your target status again, you drop a level, and start from zero.

In the new scheme, if you don't make your target status again, you will also drop a level. But there is now scope for you to start with a non-zero XP balance. It would be too generous to allow EVERYONE in this scenario to KEEP everything they had - because rollover is only ever about rolling over the SURPLUS. Only those people who actually "Earned" the soft-landed status they would have got anyway, are therefore rewarded with a rollover.
Everyone else only gets the (otherwise un-earned) soft landed status - which is the boat that EVERYONE in the current system finds themselves in.
Again, I see where you are coming from, you're assuming FB will not do this the interest of customers.
Otherwise to have everyone in the same boat, then everyone who didn't requalify would soft-land and keep all their points. Whether or not it's enough to qualify for this lover level.

Originally Posted by irishguy28
Again, your argument is not entirely valid.

In both systems, an "imminent" year-end can clear away Level Miles/segments/XPs that, if earned at a better/earlier time, would have better chance/greater scope to help you gain/retain status. That is just as true in the new system as in the old.
Yes, but the point is: Year-end was arbitrary in the old system. Year-end is always 12 months away in the new system.
Under the old system, you could benefit from multiply counting the same flights, but you had to start soon enough to actually get to the higher level within the year. Now, I can't use the 36 Gold qualifying sectors flown from January till November, but if in December I managed to fly 22 sectors instead of 24 needed to gain Platinum, I would have lost them and would start from 0 in January. With the new system, it's not enough to fly 24 extra, but on January the 1st, I already have 22 sectors.

Originally Posted by irishguy28
However, there is one thing possible in the current system that is not at all possible in the new one - using the same, early flights to count for any of the following:
  • from Ivory, not just earning Silver, but also Gold, and also Platinum.
  • from Ivory, not just earning Silver, but also Gold
  • from Silver, not just earning Gold, but also for Platinum.
Indeed. They have to be early though. That was also the point when I said whether you were lucky with the timing.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 2:47 pm
  #363  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: AMS
Posts: 2,064
Originally Posted by irishguy28
No. Earning status is now harder - whether the FB member wants to, or does so "accidentally" (no idea where you pulled that word/aspect from).
That is my interpretation of your example timeline. You have a member who consistently qualifies only for silver (the 120XP per year person) who after a few years "accidentally" hits gold instead of silver because of the roll-over points. He didn't fly enough to hit gold that year, but he's there any way.

The same for your second example, except accidental platinum even though in no instance did that person fly enough to earn 300XP in one year. The year being more of a rolling target after qualification obfuscates this slightly.

The current system would have the first guy stuck at silver (120XP guy). The second guy would get plat for one year and then drop back down.

Last edited by CyBeR; Nov 6, 2017 at 3:01 pm
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:02 pm
  #364  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Paris
Programs: FB Plat, Accorhotels Le Club Gold
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by joyu12
They are also eliminating the (pointless) divide between French residents and non-French residents, which is rather good news.

Let's see what benefits the Abonnée card will bring in terms of miles/XP earnings, combining AF Amex + Abonnée card might give a decent boost towards status.
2 XP per domestic flight in France mainland. Wonder if ther will be still be a subscription/renewal miles bonus (obviously award miles now)
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:04 pm
  #365  
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: HAG
Programs: Der 5* FTL
Posts: 8,089
Originally Posted by TographerE
Hi there

I've read through the thread and I'm trying to work out the best way that I can keep my treasured Gold status.

Why do I want Gold? Because of the lounge benefits and also the extra luggage which is vital to me.

Currently, I qualify for Gold by taking TGV Air + a flight. Coupled to this is an AF Gold AmEx card which brings me to the 30 segments a year required for Gold.

So going forward how can I keep the status? Do I have to add in a Premium Economy or two? Is it better for me to do connecting flights such as CDG > AMS > Rome?

Appreciate the help a lot
TGV doesn't count, by all indications.
You'll need 36 European economy segments, with a caveat, that a longhaul or a premium class flight can now count for more than 1 segment.

Originally Posted by CyBeR
That is my interpretation of your example timeline. You have a member who consistently qualifies only for silver (the 120XP per year person) who after a few years "accidentally" hits gold instead of silver because of the roll-over points. He didn't fly enough to hit gold that year, but he's there any way.

The same for your second example, except accidental platinum even though in no instance did that person fly enough to earn 300XP in one year. The year being more of a rolling target after qualification obfuscates this slightly.

In both cases, the current system would have the first guy stuck at either silver (120XP guy). The second guy would get plat for one year and then drop back down.
I think it would have been the same, if the person qualified in miles. Mils do carry over for those maintaining the status, right?

So if I earn 30K each year, I'd be Silver (25+5) > Silver (25+10) > Silver (25+15 = 40 = Gold
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:09 pm
  #366  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH, MNL
Programs: FB Gold
Posts: 975
Originally Posted by siw
Maybe someone can put me right but under the new FB system the amount of Miles issued for Business and First Class are vastly reduced. I've just compared some of my flights this year (inc. my FB status when purchasing ticket, fare and not total cost etc.).

Trip 1
Fare cost GBP1725 (~EUR1956 today's rate)
Old FB system:
LHR-SGN-BKK VN Bus-Sub-Class(D) Silver 15368AM (AM is Award Miles)
SGN-LHR VN Bus-Sub-Class(C) Silver 15825AM
Total for trip 31193AM

New FB system: 6 Miles per EUR1 = 6M * EUR1956 = 11736M (M is Miles)

Trip 2
Fare cost GBP2096 (~EUR2375 today's rate)
Old FB system:
LHR-CGK-LHR GA Bus-Sub-Class(A) FB Gold 36374AM
CGK-SIN-CGK GA Eco-Sub-Class(N) FB Gold 1464AM
Total for trip 37838AM

New FB system: 7 Miles per EUR1 = 7M * EUR2375 = 16625M

Trip 3
Fare cost GBP946 (~EUR1072 today's rate)
Old FB system:
LHR-FCO-SCL-FCO-LHR AZ Bus-Sub-Class(I) Platinum 49764AM

New FB system: 8 Miles per EUR1 = 8M * EUR1072 = 8576M

If the Miles earning has reduced to drastically is it time to spend remaining Award Miles and quit FB?

Thanks.
As mentioned in the Wiki (change#2):

Earnings on partners remain as-is (based on fare class and distance flown)
If all these flights aren't AF, KL or A5 coded, you should earn per the existing calculator on the FB website. VN SGN-LHR in C should therefore earn 14291 redeemable miles and 36 qualifying XP.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:09 pm
  #367  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
TGV doesn't count, by all indications.
You'll need 36 European economy segments, with a caveat, that a longhaul or a premium class flight can now count for more than 1 segment.



I think it would have been the same, if the person qualified in miles. Mils do carry over for those maintaining the status, right?

So if I earn 30K each year, I'd be Silver (25+5) > Silver (25+10) > Silver (25+15 = 40 = Gold
TGV Air doesn't count as a "domestic" flight then?
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:10 pm
  #368  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Paris
Programs: FB Platinum, All Accor Platinum
Posts: 533
Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
TGV doesn't count, by all indications.
You'll need 36 European economy segments, with a caveat, that a longhaul or a premium class flight can now count for more than 1 segment.

Why would TGV AIR not count? TGV from Brussels (ZYR) to CDG counts as a segment and earns 5XP as an intra-europe flight.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:10 pm
  #369  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: AMS
Posts: 2,064
Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
TGV doesn't count, by all indications.
You'll need 36 European economy segments, with a caveat, that a longhaul or a premium class flight can now count for more than 1 segment.



I think it would have been the same, if the person qualified in miles. Mils do carry over for those maintaining the status, right?

So if I earn 30K each year, I'd be Silver (25+5) > Silver (25+10) > Silver (25+15 = 40 = Gold
Indeed, I had a misunderstanding about mileage carry-over. That just means it works the same way as today.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:12 pm
  #370  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum
Posts: 177
[QUOTE=newflyer27;29027592]
Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
TGV doesn't count, by all indications.
You'll need 36 European economy segments, with a caveat, that a longhaul or a premium class flight can now count for more than 1 segment.


Why would TGV AIR not count? TGV from Brussels (ZYR) to CDG counts as a segment and earns 5XP as an intra-europe flight.
How can I access the calculator? I went on the FB site earlier and just got the old one showing miles and not the new system.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:12 pm
  #371  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: AMS
Posts: 2,064
This calculator shows the new information: https://www.flyingblue.com/calculator/earn.html

Be sure to select a date after April 1 2018.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:13 pm
  #372  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Paris
Programs: FB Platinum, All Accor Platinum
Posts: 533
[QUOTE=TographerE;29027602]
Originally Posted by newflyer27

How can I access the calculator? I went on the FB site earlier and just got the old one showing miles and not the new system.
just put a date after April 1st 2018.
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:14 pm
  #373  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by CyBeR
This calculator shows the new information: https://www.flyingblue.com/calculator/earn.html

Be sure to select a date after April 1 2018.
Thanks!

I guess a ton of people are looking at it right now as it seems VERY slooooooooow!!!
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:16 pm
  #374  
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,754
Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
A rollover even when losing status would mean that you get to keep the "coins" you didn't use.
Separately, a soft landing means you never lose more than 1 level.
Again, I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

However, the whole idea of FFPs is that you have a certain amount of "time" in which to earn a certain amount of "coins". (Bad analogy; coins don't typically expire, or not as quickly as FFP currency does).

If you don't get enough "coins" in order to do something interesting with them - and here the only purpose of XPs is to determine your status - then you "lose" them without ever having "used" them.

I agree that a soft landing means you never drop more than 1 level. But what is new now is that, apparently, people going down in status will get a rollover. This cannot mean that you get to keep ALL your coins - when you get a rollover on the way up, you only get to keep a fraction of the coins. So, anyone who thinks/claims that people falling down a level, and getting a soft landing, will get a "rollover" which amounts to keeping ALL of the accumulated "coins" in the previous frame, appears to be mistaken.

Instead, the workaround would appear to be that those who didn't go up in status, but had earned enough to be granted the lower status anyway, and who never previously benefitted from that fact - they would have got the soft landing even if they had earned far fewer "coins" - will now, exceptionally, get a "rollover" based on the amount they exceeded the lower (rather than the target) threshold.

For people who flew so little that they wouldn't have amassed the necessary "coins" for the new, lower status level - well, the soft-landing is reward enough. They get no rollover. Otherwise, everyone that dropped in status gets to keep everything from the entire previous year, and have another full year in which to attempt to reach their target, with all of the previous year's earning counted, too.

(And remember - the "hallmark" of the new system is that double-counting of XPs is not allowed! Even if they didn't, first time around, actually achieve anything you weren't going to get anyway, via the soft-landing mechanism! Allowing a soft-lander to keep ALL the XPs means that they can use each of those XPs for a second bite of the cherry! they failed in the previous year to even maintain that status, and now you say they can use ALL those XPs in the new year to aim for the new, lower first target)

Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
But I do think it's a bad thing to do as it makes those who can "pay" lose out on a benefit that only those who can't pay get.
But again, the current system is that anyone with status [exept Silvers, of course] will get a soft landing. Even if they don't fly at all; even if they fly so much they only just missed out on maintaining status.

None of these people would have received a rollover. The new system will additionally "reward" those who had earned the new, lower status, by allowing them to start the next year with a non-zero balance - previously, they would have started with zero, no different from the person who soft landed and didn't fly at all the previous year.

Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
It's not the same as in current situation; everyone gets soft landing, but only those who at least maintain level get carryover.
Precisely. Under the current system, anyone granted the soft-landing gets no carryover. Even those who had more than qualified for that lower status, and hence didn't actually "need" the soft landing!

Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
It might be too generous. But it also means you get to enjoy another year of Platinum for getting 300XP, regardles whether it took you 11.5 months or 12.5 months, which gives you an incentive to grab those XPs anyway. Otherwise there is no point if you already know you can't get Platinum.
But that's not what it means.

Everyone has only 12 months to get to 300XP. You are apparently allowing some (sneaky/canny people) to "fail" in this effort, and start with a new "carry over" balance of, technically, the entirety of what they collected the previous year. This amounts to giving them a 2 year qualification period, albeit for a lower target the second time around.






Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
Yes, but the point is: Year-end was arbitrary in the old system. Year-end is always 12 months away in the new system.
There is nothing "arbitrary" about the end of the year. Simple, unchanging, easy to remember, and impossible to change.

'Year end" is not always 12 months away in the new system - it comes earlier, if you cross a threshold.

AS such, 'year end" is more arbitrary in the new system. It is not only influenced by when you went up a level last year, but also when you actually go up a level this year, and is not always guaranteed to be a fixed 12 month period. And even for people who end up getting a fixed 12 month period, the chances are they will have to look that date up - it won't always be an easy date to remember, as current FB members are used to.

Originally Posted by Fabo.sk
Under the old system, you could benefit from multiply counting the same flights, but you had to start soon enough to actually get to the higher level within the year. Now, I can't use the 36 Gold qualifying sectors flown from January till November, but if in December I managed to fly 22 sectors instead of 24 needed to gain Platinum, I would have lost them and would start from 0 in January. With the new system, it's not enough to fly 24 extra, but on January the 1st, I already have 22 sectors.
You didn't *have* to start soon. You could, if you wished, decide not to pursue another level in the current year - and decide to give yourself a break (until the next calendar year), if you accepted that that level of flying was unlikely to happen in the current year.

In the new system, as soon as you go up a level, the 12 month counter starts immediately, and the "higher" status threshold comes into effect immediately. Unlike in the previous case, a short bout of further additional flying will seldom suffice. And you don't have the luxury of being able to "pause" until the next year, because that timer has suddenly been started immediately!
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Old Nov 6, 2017, 3:18 pm
  #375  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: AMS
Posts: 2,064
Originally Posted by TographerE
Thanks!

I guess a ton of people are looking at it right now as it seems VERY slooooooooow!!!
Yes, I have the same problem. It crashes about every 40 seconds.
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