eggsbenedict

But you could make the exact same point the other way, that AC could differentiate their elite recognition program by offering 50K and 75K passengers priority over non-status J passengers. While I doubt we would ever see that (and as someone who will far more often be a non-status J passenger than a 50K+ Y passenger it would be very much not in my interest) It's not that outrageous an idea, LH seems to feel that way with how they've set up their lounges.

For that matter, premium CC holders might be more profitable to AC these days than either elite Y passengers or non-status J passengers. Be careful what you wish for as far as suggesting AC might want to show more appreciation for their most profitable customers.

Bohemian1

I express no opinion or have any supposition regarding that mix. But I would be curious to understand what it is.

hirohito888

DL has that, they separate their lounge lines for DL J and DL 360/Diamond elites and a separate line for other Plat/Gold/ST elites and CC holders.

But DL doesn't allow domestic F passengers in lounge and DL has also made it clear that CC non-elite in Y is more profitable than a Plat/Gold in Y.

I just think AC needs to expand MLL capacity. If they're adding aircraft, flights, and J seats, inevitably, they have to expand lounge space to keep up. I understand there are space limitations at airports, but AC needs to find creative solutions. (Comparing to UA with expanded lounges in EWR/DEN in the same terminal or DL remodeled terminal at LGA/JFK/LAX)

billdokes

Other than the addition of the Signature Suites at YYZ/YVR, and the addition of the Cafe at YYZ, when was the last time AC materially increased lounge capacity in the domestic network. In 2011 AC carried 33.9m PAX, in 2023 they carried 46m, that's a 36% increase so it's kinda just math.

They either need to build more capacity, continue to re-configure the lounges to cram more people in, or further restrict access.

Personally, given that it seems that space is difficult to come by and major renos take a LOOOONG time, I'd rather see them improve the overall aesthetic of the current MLL's with better seating, remove the University cafeteria tables in YYZ/YVR and further restrict access by tying it to the PAX Status + the Fare Family...ie: no lounge access if you are traveling on a Basic or Standard Fare unless you are 75k/SE. I'm sure that alone would provide the relief that they need...but only they know the math on that.

RangerNS

MLL access is above-the-fold feature of status.

I don't know of any legal construct with demands they would prioritize purchases access over access granted in other ways.

You are free to have that as your opinion on how you would run a lounge, and I'm sympathetic to J pax being denied access having a legitimate, actionable, gripe.

But then, so would status PAX.

Transpacificflyer

In respect to the interpretation of a contract in a consumer dispute, the courts will typically interpret the contract in its broadest form in favour of the consumer, i.e. where there is doubt, the consumer is favoured. Access is interpreted to mean the right of entry and/or the right of use. Because Air Canada has not attached any limiting conditions/language, to the business class fare MLL access, the term access would be interpreted in its broadest sense of the term. At the very least, an argument can be made that Air Canada is misleading the consumer.

Until AC releases the financial data, we cannot discuss.

If a service provider specifically sells a service ,it creates an obligation to deliver the service.
If a service provider extends a benefit that is subject to reasonable specified restrictions/ conditions, the service provider's obligation to deliver the services need only be provided within the terms and conditions of that benefit.

The business class fare is sold with an undertaking of access to an MLL without any declared restriction. (see discussion above)
The benefits provided to AC status holders are provided subject to conditions. The benefits page states;
Complimentary access to Maple Leaf Lounges. Enjoy the comfort and amenities of our Maple Leaf Lounges. Subject to space availability.
Please note the difference between the two.

IMO, the failure to accommodate the business fare passengers is not an oversight, but is a calculated gamble by the airline that few if any customers will complain. My perception is that AC will argue against compensating the most basic of customer demands. As such, the airline knows what it is doing and has gambled that it isn't worth consumers' wasting their time chasing the airline over the issue. Not too many people can be bothered to pursue AC even when they have a good case. It is a time consuming and frustrating experience.

Not to shoot myself in the foot, but in fairness to the airline, if the waiting times are usually short, then there isn't much of an issue. Few if any customers are going to chase the airline because they had to wait in line for 15 minute or less. Unfortunately, we do not know what the actual waiting times are.

billdokes

You seem very passionate about this so why don't you go ahead sue them and see how far you get. Good luck establishing your damages and getting a court to award them. Clearly an example of 'the fight is so vicious because the stakes are so small'. As I mentioned previously, in many situations given the state of the MLL's the kindest thing AC can do to a PAX is deny entry.

RangerNS

Everything is subject to space availability, product availability, physical mass of the universe, and such.

Just last night, eating a burger downtown, I saw a gaggle of dudebros, tickets in hand, being told to wait behind a velvet rope, while several young women, underdressed for the weather and wearing shoes entirely unsuitable for cobblestone streets, waved right in to a club.

HerpaYvr

The lounges have changed so much with newer furniture and seating arrangements to increase capacity and eliminate E25/E35 from the lounge.

I think there are way too many non-frequent flyers in the lounges, eliminating the lounge access benefit to credit card users!!!!

Also, I have seen when one books family and friends on one itinerary they all get that Zone 1/2 and invitation to the lounge. In the YUL DOM MLL last week one gentleman was arguing with the MLL agent as the agent was telling him, he could not bring in his basketball team of kids that the general said were all his. I was leaving when this happened and when I was behind him, he said he had travelled 7 times this year and this was the first time he had heard of this.

I am also thinking of the future, after I stop flying as much, use all of my SE banked years, and become a lifetime E75, and if I am not dead by then, what will the lounges look like then?

taupo

YVR Dom had flow control lunchtime today, about 20 in non SE line.
Went upstairs, an absolute shitshow so left right away for a poke bowl from Pacific Market where I sat in peace and quiet

flyingcrooked

Because you made this point in reply to me, I am guessing you mean to say the court would (or at least might) interpret a right of access to mean a right of immediate access, without any delay or wait. If so, I guess that seems implausible, although I am no lawyer. Suppose there is one person in front of me who is faffing about trying to get their boarding pass to scan or with a question for the lounge attendant and I have to wait 5 minutes. Surely in that case my rights haven't been breached, have they? What about if I wait 5 minutes because the lounge is full? To me that doesn't seem different, and I would guess the issue becomes when a delay amounts to a denial of entry. This may be a bit hard to answer in general because it depends on how much time one has, e.g. a 15 minute wait when you have 2 hours before your flight is different than a 15 minute wait when you have 20 minutes before your flight.

More generally, doesn't this seem to be how AC operates? Consider the way they tell, say, 25ks that they will have priority boarding, priority standby, etc. This is at least somewhat misleading in that they mean they have priority only over the some people, and that many other people (35ks and up) have priority over them (at least for some of these services). In particular, look at how they word the 25k benefit:

"Get on board your flight first, or at your leisure, via a dedicated lane for flights operated by Air Canada, Air Canada Express and Air Canada Rouge."

Really? 25ks get on board flights first, and at their leisure? I can't find an interpretation of 'get on board your flight first' that is both semantically plausible and true.

Note I am not disagreeing with you, I think if AC advertises benefits they should reliably provide them, and any non-access to the benefit should be a rare exception, not part of standard operational planning.

YVR4Ever

YVR TB had a (thankfully) short line today for the first time I can ever recall and is packed to the rafters. Something, something, spring break.

Sean Douglas

I was there last Friday at about 11:00 am, no queue or line, about 75% full, when I left at 1:00 pm, still no line, so I guess we lucked out given it was spring break.

hirohito888

AC SFO MLL. Around 50% full at 10-11AM, right before flights to YYZ and YVR.

The showers were in-op, they said it was some maintenance issue.

The automatic gates also did not work.

I liked the natural light of the lounge. But because it's just one large space, I didn't like the acoustics, I felt like all I could hear was the loud kitchen and buffet. Food was breakfast fare, it wasn't any better or worse than food at UC. Bar doesn't open until 11AM.

Wigg

There are so many reports of the showers being in-operable. We all have showers at home, and while they are not used as frequently as a "public" shower, when was the last time it was in-operable? And if it was, it would be fixed in a few days at the most. They are not difficult to repair unless a pipe in the floor has broken.

I have to believe that AC just doesn't want the operating costs (cleaning between users, towels, etc.) and/or doesn't have the staffing to operate them.