Originally Posted by Ben Smith

Your comments and tone are not constructive to a discussion with AC. If you don't want us to participate on here then just say so. All of us at AC will stop replying or discussing anything with you personally on a public forum effective now. A few months ago Ben Lipsey (who we met off this site before he joined AC) personally convinced me to have AC officially rejoin the conversation on FT in the open transparent manner that you have seen take place over the last few months. We choose to post under our real names and therefore the conversation can be challenging at times. We fully expect to hear both positive and negative posts about how we run our business and the reason we participate here is to share some of our thinking and hear opinions from our customers on what improvements and/or changes they would like to see. We have listened to many of the various suggestions from this board and over the past few months when appropriate have instituted several ideas that came directly from FT members.
Air Canada has consistently produced a lower profit margin than our NA peers. Although over the last few years we have made big strides in improving our bottom line even in 2013 WS AA DL all outperformed us from an EBITDAR perspective. Our current model which includes many things needs to better adapt to our marketplace in order for us to improve our financial position and reach higher overall margins. We are a service business and in order to strive and succeed we need to significantly improve in many customer facing areas of our business. When it came time to decide on what type of product to put on our new 787s as well as our new fleet of 737MAX aircraft we needed to choose how best to position ourselves to improve our service while also expanding our margins. Having best-in-class J seats and lower than average premium revenues (which is what we currently have on many routes) is not a sustainable strategy. We don't expect all of our J customers to be paying full J fares all the time but we do need the average fare to improve to justify the investments we are making. We have experimented with lower quality J products and you will now see us move toward a more uniform product across our fleet. We did not expect to get this changeover 100pct correct and are open to tweaks where they make sense. We are more than happy to take comments and views from our customers but I'm not prepared to have you bully one of our most dedicated employees on a public site. If you have an issue with Ben L personally please PM me directly.

Originally Posted by ABG

I believe the point of this thread is to make it personal..... to what ends I have no idea, but it is rather pathetic. The AC forum was pretty lame all of six months ago with the same silly questions and boring threads. The AC presence here as really made it interesting again. To lose them because certain members want to bait AC staffers or embarrass would be a shame.

Originally Posted by YWG-RO

Well put.

AC has returned to a 3 class airline internationally. PY is like old J. If you want J (old F), AC wants you to pay for it. If you don't want Y, we're happy to upgrade you to PY with $ or an upgrade instrument. In fact you need to do this if you're a FF because AC made the new Y product so horrible.

Originally Posted by ridefar

Ben... I have been one of the most vocal and most critical in the other thread. I stand by everything I have said, and completely reject the notion that the changes are good for AC or good for us, your FFers. Having said that I appreciate your participation, and don't want to see it end.

I don't think I will be flying AC nearly as much in the future if the "tweaks" aren't substantive. Certainly not in anything other than a Tango fare. But don't mistake my extreme displeasure at the new policies for anything other than what it is. I still appreciate all the AC employees that participate here, and do appreciate it when you listen (no change fees for standby on Flex in the Western Triangle is great). So thanks for listening, and hope you keep rolling with the punches. Mostly hope you really listen and understand the comments made in the other thread and do some serious rethinking of the approach.

Originally Posted by ABG

I believe the point of this thread is to make it personal..... to what ends I have no idea, but it is rather pathetic. The AC forum was pretty lame all of six months ago with the same silly questions and boring threads. The AC presence here as really made it interesting again. To lose them because certain members want to bait AC staffers or embarrass would be a shame.

Originally Posted by Ben Smith

Your comments and tone are not constructive to a discussion with AC. If you don't want us to participate on here then just say so. All of us at AC will stop replying or discussing anything with you personally on a public forum effective now. A few months ago Ben Lipsey (who we met off this site before he joined AC) personally convinced me to have AC officially rejoin the conversation on FT in the open transparent manner that you have seen take place over the last few months. We choose to post under our real names and therefore the conversation can be challenging at times. We fully expect to hear both positive and negative posts about how we run our business and the reason we participate here is to share some of our thinking and hear opinions from our customers on what improvements and/or changes they would like to see. We have listened to many of the various suggestions from this board and over the past few months when appropriate have instituted several ideas that came directly from FT members.
Air Canada has consistently produced a lower profit margin than our NA peers. Although over the last few years we have made big strides in improving our bottom line even in 2013 WS AA DL all outperformed us from an EBITDAR perspective. Our current model which includes many things needs to better adapt to our marketplace in order for us to improve our financial position and reach higher overall margins. We are a service business and in order to strive and succeed we need to significantly improve in many customer facing areas of our business. When it came time to decide on what type of product to put on our new 787s as well as our new fleet of 737MAX aircraft we needed to choose how best to position ourselves to improve our service while also expanding our margins. Having best-in-class J seats and lower than average premium revenues (which is what we currently have on many routes) is not a sustainable strategy. We don't expect all of our J customers to be paying full J fares all the time but we do need the average fare to improve to justify the investments we are making. We have experimented with lower quality J products and you will now see us move toward a more uniform product across our fleet. We did not expect to get this changeover 100pct correct and are open to tweaks where they make sense. We are more than happy to take comments and views from our customers but I'm not prepared to have you bully one of our most dedicated employees on a public site. If you have an issue with Ben L personally please PM me directly.

Originally Posted by theseatbelt

But the issue here is we think the change is unfair and it has cause danger and frustration. It has gone too extreme.

What I ask of is for you guys to go back to the drawing board. I will repeat one of my previous posts to illustrate what I mean.

–----------

Posted on the other giant forum but there's way too many posts there... so would like to post it here.


Air Canada,

Allow me to give you some insight into what is going on. Think of this as a benefit – free consulting advice from some of your most loyal fliers – many who are probably consultants. The time I spent writing this I could have charged $700 of consulting fees + travel expenses (Air Canada), but I will waive that for now as this issue concerns me personally

I present to you: the Laffer curve for Air Canada.



Where Air Canada Altitude Program is at now (2014)
The top graph shows where things are probably at right now (look at the blue shared area, you're somewhere there). You guys are not happy with your EBITDAR, and you guys think there are probably too many Altitude benefits / too few restrictions. This is probably true. One example is many fliers are doing segment runs – some on non-AC airlines – just to earn segments so they can attain status without Air Canada profiting from them. Some people even pay $300 for an itinerary that involves six segments – such a waste. You’re losing money and you need to stop the bleeding. Thus, it would be wise to put on some more restrictions so you can shift to the left hit that “optimal” EBITDAR point on the Laffer curve - the point that makes your shareholders happy. Having a higher minimum AC metal requirement is one of them, and I agree some minor changes need to made (~3). But, on an overall basis, at this point, people are quite happy with the 2014 program. This is co-incidently reflected in your recent record earnings and passenger traffic. Well done.


Where Air Canada Altitude Program will be (2015)
The bottom graph shows where you guys are going to adjust things – move things to the very left (note the blue shared area has gone to the extreme left - not a good thing). You’ve decided to go EXTREME and cut a TON of benefits and add a WHOLE LOT of restrictions. So much cutting and more restrictions that it takes a WHOLE 2,536 words on http://www.aircanada.com/en/aeroplan...e/updates.html to explain it all. Halving the eupgrades, removing the 500 mile earning ability, reduce eupgrade thresholds, the list goes on. It took me a good hour to digest what was going on. You’ve done so much cutting that you’ve angered not some, but ALL fliers on this forum. The top guns and superelites. The less elites and the prestige. The entrepreneurs and the consultants. The engineers and accountants. Just read this forum. Don’t you guys get it (or see it)? Are you guys blind? This is serious.

Look at this scenario that illustrates how extreme you guys went. A flier who gives you all his flying business and flew 29 flights between London LHR and Toronto YYZ and made Super Elite at 100K (~1) and you thank him/her by just offering a mere 3 flights of upgrades? (~2) That’s not even enough for him and his significant other to enjoy a little personal vacation in Paris and have the return trip upgraded for BOTH people. She’s probably yelling at him for spending so much on a plane, not being at home, and getting no benefits and being made to fly cattle class.

Given peoples’ spending and flying habits, and based on the comments on this forum, you guys will probably lose severely from this “enhancement”. You guys have gone too extreme and you’ve probably missed the “optimal” EBITDAR point on the Laffer curve again. Sure, you may have some real product improvement up your sleeve and you might be able to convince some people to pay full J. Sure, we don’t have hindsight and maybe there is a small possibility that your EBITDAR will increase. But you guys are gambling and taking a huge risk – on the cost of your most loyal fliers. We’re absolutely unhappy with the changes and we are willing to take our spending habits elsewhere (or just buy Tango all the time). If this program fails, and you guys land up losing severely, it won’t be our heads that will roll, it will be your heads.

Closing remarks
You guys really need to go back to the drawing board and figure this out because there are many, many angry people here, including me and all of my colleagues at work and friends who do not even know this forum exists. Remember we represent the tip of the iceberg of a whole world of fliers, and our comments should at least be taken seriously. We're like your canary in a coal mine.

I’m not asking you to revert back to the 2014 program to the written word. But I’m asking you to give a little more back. Start with the eupgrades first. That will make most people happy again. Maybe reduce the eupgrade requirements down or introduce some ability to actually buy some eupgrades with points or money - for the poor superelite that needs to fly with his wife to Paris. Then carry on with the others until a good well thought balance is achieved. Aim for optimal EBITDAR – your shareholders demand it.

Air Canada, I hope to continue to do business with you – it’s been great flying with you – and you guys have been my top choice (you should hear the wrestling matches and excuses I give to my company’s travel dept just to fly AC instead of others). I look forward to you taking this opportunity to refine youryour program further to address the issues raised by people on this board. As someone with status for a third year, going into fourth now, I sincerely hope to be able to stay on as a loyal Air Canada Super Elite customer for many, many years to come - as long as you hold your end of the loyalty bargain

Yours very truly

TheSeatBelt
- Keeping our land glorious and free. Standing on guard for thee.


Notes:
(~1) Assuming 3540 miles one way between LHR – YYZ. Need 29 flights to make Super Elite.
(~2) Assuming 21 eupgrades per fight on a low Flex fare, the most likely fare a person would spend on his own dime for a personal flight. Assuming the person chose 70 eupgrades to start, he would only be able to upgrade 3 LHR – YYZ or 3 LHR – CDG flights. .
(~3) You guys still have forgot about the people who pay $300 for a six segment flight doing a segment run to earn segments and qualify for Superelite and occupy six seats = six lost revenue opportunities

Originally Posted by Ben Smith

Your comments and tone are not constructive to a discussion with AC. If you don't want us to participate on here then just say so. All of us at AC will stop replying or discussing anything with you personally on a public forum effective now. A few months ago Ben Lipsey (who we met off this site before he joined AC) personally convinced me to have AC officially rejoin the conversation on FT in the open transparent manner that you have seen take place over the last few months. We choose to post under our real names and therefore the conversation can be challenging at times. We fully expect to hear both positive and negative posts about how we run our business and the reason we participate here is to share some of our thinking and hear opinions from our customers on what improvements and/or changes they would like to see. We have listened to many of the various suggestions from this board and over the past few months when appropriate have instituted several ideas that came directly from FT members.
Air Canada has consistently produced a lower profit margin than our NA peers. Although over the last few years we have made big strides in improving our bottom line even in 2013 WS AA DL all outperformed us from an EBITDAR perspective. Our current model which includes many things needs to better adapt to our marketplace in order for us to improve our financial position and reach higher overall margins. We are a service business and in order to strive and succeed we need to significantly improve in many customer facing areas of our business. When it came time to decide on what type of product to put on our new 787s as well as our new fleet of 737MAX aircraft we needed to choose how best to position ourselves to improve our service while also expanding our margins. Having best-in-class J seats and lower than average premium revenues (which is what we currently have on many routes) is not a sustainable strategy. We don't expect all of our J customers to be paying full J fares all the time but we do need the average fare to improve to justify the investments we are making. We have experimented with lower quality J products and you will now see us move toward a more uniform product across our fleet. We did not expect to get this changeover 100pct correct and are open to tweaks where they make sense. We are more than happy to take comments and views from our customers but I'm not prepared to have you bully one of our most dedicated employees on a public site. If you have an issue with Ben L personally please PM me directly.

Originally Posted by Ben Smith

We view this a little differently. When the marketplace is not willing to pay us for what it costs to produce our product/service then we need to adapt or die. eg TS is the market leader ahead of both AF and AC on YULCDG. For various reasons we were not able to earn high enough average fares across all cabins to justify the investment in additional aircraft to expand capacity. Up until recently TS were able to offer during the peak summer months up to 3 flights per day on this route vs our single trip. Yes in many cases we could charge a premium vs TS but the bulk of the market was fine with 16" 9 abreast seats A330 Y seats. We could have shrunk, pulled out or adapted. We chose to adapt and that is how we ended up with our 777HD. Our Y and PY are still superior to TS and our J is the only consistent lie-flat option on the route. With this change our volume went up 30pct profit drastically improved and we are now able to invest in the route and are adding a second frequency next summer. Even if I wanted to offer a more expensive product unfortunately the marketplace is not willing to pay for it. This is our reality.

Originally Posted by Wings100

Sorry but this thread is just making the dialogue worse.

The rollout was not well done. Loyal customers feel they have been betrayed as the program has essentially been gutted with respect to eupgrade earning and other requirements

There can be some tweaks but bullying will not result in getting what you want.

Someone's wording taken out of context as I was told that I cheapen J class was by a FT member not by Ben L. I really think Ben meant that free=devalue. Can we please leave it at that?

This thread is not in the right spirit....

Originally Posted by Ben Smith

Your comments and tone are not constructive to a discussion with AC. If you don't want us to participate on here then just say so. All of us at AC will stop replying or discussing anything with you personally on a public forum effective now. A few months ago Ben Lipsey (who we met off this site before he joined AC) personally convinced me to have AC officially rejoin the conversation on FT in the open transparent manner that you have seen take place over the last few months. We choose to post under our real names and therefore the conversation can be challenging at times. We fully expect to hear both positive and negative posts about how we run our business and the reason we participate here is to share some of our thinking and hear opinions from our customers on what improvements and/or changes they would like to see. We have listened to many of the various suggestions from this board and over the past few months when appropriate have instituted several ideas that came directly from FT members.
Air Canada has consistently produced a lower profit margin than our NA peers. Although over the last few years we have made big strides in improving our bottom line even in 2013 WS AA DL all outperformed us from an EBITDAR perspective. Our current model which includes many things needs to better adapt to our marketplace in order for us to improve our financial position and reach higher overall margins. We are a service business and in order to strive and succeed we need to significantly improve in many customer facing areas of our business. When it came time to decide on what type of product to put on our new 787s as well as our new fleet of 737MAX aircraft we needed to choose how best to position ourselves to improve our service while also expanding our margins. Having best-in-class J seats and lower than average premium revenues (which is what we currently have on many routes) is not a sustainable strategy. We don't expect all of our J customers to be paying full J fares all the time but we do need the average fare to improve to justify the investments we are making. We have experimented with lower quality J products and you will now see us move toward a more uniform product across our fleet. We did not expect to get this changeover 100pct correct and are open to tweaks where they make sense. We are more than happy to take comments and views from our customers but I'm not prepared to have you bully one of our most dedicated employees on a public site. If you have an issue with Ben L personally please PM me directly.

Originally Posted by Neil791

Let me preface this with saying i am not, nor have i ever been an AC apologist and more often than not i've seen the 'enhancements' over the years as being anything but!

That said, i've just read the last 70+ posts in this thread and the one trend i'm seeing is a group of grown children having a temper tantrum because someone has hurt their feelings. I'm trying to put this as simply as possible as the context is just that, simple!
Its amazing to see how such a widely diverse group of people can come on to a public forum, find a common bone to chew on and then feed off one another's animosity towards a corporation which they clearly feel they've built.

I'm not taking away from anyone's BIS time with AC, but i can't help but laugh when i read so many people getting offended by the otherwise casual manner in which the communications are being shared with a company executive. The comments made were done so in a public internet forum and not as part of a public, company sanctioned press release!!
How many times have you ever had such open lines of communication with ANY company as a consumer?? As Ben S. just said, they made a decision to use their real names and try to contribute on FT with the aim of listening to the feedback and making whatever plausible changes/improvements, etc. could be done.

If everyone can take a step away from the toy-tossing for just a minute and look at the big picture, it should be clear enough to see the point which Ben L. was trying to make in that the preference for the company is to have full-fare J passengers and not discounted Y passengers being pushed up to the J class because they won the R-Games, which when you look at the dollars and cents of it all is in fact a huge disparity in price.

I'm not trying to speak on his behalf, but its clearly not a sound business model to be giving away something for nothing. To me its like going to the grocery store and paying for ground beef but getting prime rib or filet mignon! Of course once you get a taste for that filet mignon at the hamburger price you begin to expect it and inevitably people get bent out of shape when they don't get it, but why should they?? If simply shopping at the same store (or in this case flying the same airline) all the time was a measure of who should get what and in what order than travelling in general would be much different across all modes, not just airlines!!

Someone mentioned the hotel loyalty program and being upgraded to a suite...sure its nice when it happens, but are you going to argue with the hotel executive when they tell you that their preference is to sell their suites at top dollar versus giving them away for nothing?? Furthermore, you'd never know the suites were empty because you can't see them whereas you can see the empty J seat and automatically people's sense of entitlement kicks in.

Now you can make the argument about the merits of having a loyalty program if you're not going to reward the most loyal customers, and I agree to an extent. Apart from the upgrades, there are a whole group of privileges bestowed to SE's and E's which the 'common' flyer does not receive, and AC has simply made it more difficult shall we say or generally less convenient for SE's and E's to use their eUps but everything else remains intact.

As we're speaking of loyalty, prior to the 'enhancements' (which in fairness was a REAL poor choice of words at the time to describe obvious detractions to a FFP) introduced over the years, how many supposedly 'loyal' people were collecting miles on UA and other US based carriers due to the cheaper flights and effectively cheaper spend criteria to obtain, maintain and retain status with AC?!?
As soon as AC introduced a minimum segment/mileage aspect to their FFP the general outcry was incredible...how dare they require the most loyal passengers actually fly with them in order to be treated in such a privileged manner?!?

Many have said it over the many threads and topics but it would appear as though few have put it into practice and thats simply put...if you dont like it, spend your money elsewhere! Of course for some its much easier to come onto FT and moan about everything whilst quietly booking the rest of their yearly travel with AC and hoping to be successful with aero-lotto for that coveted J seat!

Whether we like it or not, Rouge and Premium Y is clearly here to stay and the business model moving forward for AC is going to be that if you want to sit at the front of the plane you'd better expect to pay for it, simple as that! Preference for empty J seats should always go to full fare, followed by LMU, and then at the company's discretion going the route of Op-Ups but as has been mentioned if they choose to fly with empy J seats than so be it!