ffsim

Hard to disagree with this.

To be honest, it's important for a company rep to understand what its customers are feeling. That's why AC has multiple representatives on FT. As has been mentioned numerous times in the other thread, it's nothing personal.

That's the impression I got from reading the multiple replies from BenL a and Andrew. They really see this as a concern they have to address. Rightly or wrongly...

Fair enough, but...

...this, Ben, this. Stating that paying for Y and sitting in J cheapens the J experience is a rubbish position to take when Y fares are often more expensive then Z fares. How exactly is the J experience cheapened when AC gets more $$$ from a Y fare plus the use of eUpgrade credits

supatight80

Ben, youre spg plat so i am sure you are aware of their suite upgrade program and best available room including standard suites. Do you think that suite night awards cheapens starwood's premium products like luxury collection or St. Regis?

You yourself said that upgrading pax last minute is of minimal cost.

And this is not apples and oranges, as we are talking loyalty programs in general
Just like hotel inventory, if theres no suite inventory then there's no suite to upgrade. But how is it cheapening their premium products?

Imagine the uproar on starwood if william said that SNAs cheapens starwood's top end hotels and that starwood is not a charity...is that what you think too about SNAs?

Baley

Where Ben and obviously you are not getting it is that elites and especially super elites are 'paying' for these upgrades by buying more expensive fares and flying 1000's and 1000's of miles on AC metal. To get an occasional upgrade is a small but very important part of spending all this money on AC. It's a sound business practice for any company to reward the people who spend the most with them.

But when Ben says things like why pay for J when you can upgrade for 'free' it diminishes the value of being an elite. Saying elites are getting it for 'free' is akin to saying they are paying for the lowest fares in Y and sitting in J. It's a ridiculous statement for an AC employee and demonstrates how out of touch they are with their highest revenue paying clients.

These are not freebies but are darn well earned by spending copious amounts of cash and in no way cheapens the J product.

There is no value anymore in bring an elite with AC as is demonstrated by these types of statements by Ben.

theseatbelt

But the issue here is we think the change is unfair and it has cause danger and frustration. It has gone too extreme.

What I ask of is for you guys to go back to the drawing board. I will repeat one of my previous posts to illustrate what I mean.

–----------

Posted on the other giant forum but there's way too many posts there... so would like to post it here.


Air Canada,

Allow me to give you some insight into what is going on. Think of this as a benefit – free consulting advice from some of your most loyal fliers – many who are probably consultants. The time I spent writing this I could have charged $700 of consulting fees + travel expenses (Air Canada), but I will waive that for now as this issue concerns me personally

I present to you: the Laffer curve for Air Canada.



Where Air Canada Altitude Program is at now (2014)
The top graph shows where things are probably at right now (look at the blue shared area, you're somewhere there). You guys are not happy with your EBITDAR, and you guys think there are probably too many Altitude benefits / too few restrictions. This is probably true. One example is many fliers are doing segment runs – some on non-AC airlines – just to earn segments so they can attain status without Air Canada profiting from them. Some people even pay $300 for an itinerary that involves six segments – such a waste. You’re losing money and you need to stop the bleeding. Thus, it would be wise to put on some more restrictions so you can shift to the left hit that “optimal” EBITDAR point on the Laffer curve - the point that makes your shareholders happy. Having a higher minimum AC metal requirement is one of them, and I agree some minor changes need to made (~3). But, on an overall basis, at this point, people are quite happy with the 2014 program. This is co-incidently reflected in your recent record earnings and passenger traffic. Well done.


Where Air Canada Altitude Program will be (2015)
The bottom graph shows where you guys are going to adjust things – move things to the very left (note the blue shared area has gone to the extreme left - not a good thing). You’ve decided to go EXTREME and cut a TON of benefits and add a WHOLE LOT of restrictions. So much cutting and more restrictions that it takes a WHOLE 2,536 words on http://www.aircanada.com/en/aeroplan...e/updates.html to explain it all. Halving the eupgrades, removing the 500 mile earning ability, reduce eupgrade thresholds, the list goes on. It took me a good hour to digest what was going on. You’ve done so much cutting that you’ve angered not some, but ALL fliers on this forum. The top guns and superelites. The less elites and the prestige. The entrepreneurs and the consultants. The engineers and accountants. Just read this forum. Don’t you guys get it (or see it)? Are you guys blind? This is serious.

Look at this scenario that illustrates how extreme you guys went. A flier who gives you all his flying business and flew 29 flights between London LHR and Toronto YYZ and made Super Elite at 100K (~1) and you thank him/her by just offering a mere 3 flights of upgrades? (~2) That’s not even enough for him and his significant other to enjoy a little personal vacation in Paris and have the return trip upgraded for BOTH people. She’s probably yelling at him for spending so much on a plane, not being at home, and getting no benefits and being made to fly cattle class.

Given peoples’ spending and flying habits, and based on the comments on this forum, you guys will probably lose severely from this “enhancement”. You guys have gone too extreme and you’ve probably missed the “optimal” EBITDAR point on the Laffer curve again. Sure, you may have some real product improvement up your sleeve and you might be able to convince some people to pay full J. Sure, we don’t have hindsight and maybe there is a small possibility that your EBITDAR will increase. But you guys are gambling and taking a huge risk – on the cost of your most loyal fliers. We’re absolutely unhappy with the changes and we are willing to take our spending habits elsewhere (or just buy Tango all the time). If this program fails, and you guys land up losing severely, it won’t be our heads that will roll, it will be your heads.

Closing remarks
You guys really need to go back to the drawing board and figure this out because there are many, many angry people here, including me and all of my colleagues at work and friends who do not even know this forum exists. Remember we represent the tip of the iceberg of a whole world of fliers, and our comments should at least be taken seriously. We're like your canary in a coal mine.

I’m not asking you to revert back to the 2014 program to the written word. But I’m asking you to give a little more back. Start with the eupgrades first. That will make most people happy again. Maybe reduce the eupgrade requirements down or introduce some ability to actually buy some eupgrades with points or money - for the poor superelite that needs to fly with his wife to Paris. Then carry on with the others until a good well thought balance is achieved. Aim for optimal EBITDAR – your shareholders demand it.

Air Canada, I hope to continue to do business with you – it’s been great flying with you – and you guys have been my top choice (you should hear the wrestling matches and excuses I give to my company’s travel dept just to fly AC instead of others). I look forward to you taking this opportunity to refine youryour program further to address the issues raised by people on this board. As someone with status for a third year, going into fourth now, I sincerely hope to be able to stay on as a loyal Air Canada Super Elite customer for many, many years to come - as long as you hold your end of the loyalty bargain

Yours very truly

TheSeatBelt
- Keeping our land glorious and free. Standing on guard for thee.


Notes:
(~1) Assuming 3540 miles one way between LHR – YYZ. Need 29 flights to make Super Elite.
(~2) Assuming 21 eupgrades per fight on a low Flex fare, the most likely fare a person would spend on his own dime for a personal flight. Assuming the person chose 70 eupgrades to start, he would only be able to upgrade 3 LHR – YYZ or 3 LHR – CDG flights. .
(~3) You guys still have forgot about the people who pay $300 for a six segment flight doing a segment run to earn segments and qualify for Superelite and occupy six seats = six lost revenue opportunities

Baley

Excellent post.
You said it far better than I ever could and it's hard to understand why a ot of people can't see it like this.

FlyerGoldII

If his comments are directed at the users of eupgrades, then they should not be directed back at the people in AC who originally organized the eupgrade program. If benefits are offered by the airline to the customer, is it not our prerogative to take advantage of the benefits, to the maximal degree possible. If the eupgrade program was never developed, we would not have this discussion on this and the other thread.

FlyerTalker683455

Nope. You said it cheapens the product. Period.

FlyerTalker683455

You sell J seats to Tango customers every day of the week. At a HUGE discount, in fact not a whole lot different than allowing Flex customers who use eUPs. Yet Many more buy flex waiting for upgrades than are available if Andrew is correct about the long wait lists.

You sell discounted J, even below the price of a Y fare.

You are not making sense. Sorry.

RatherBeInYOW

This is only true if you assume the Elites you upgraded would have paid for J otherwise. You've already admitted the incremental cost of putting a Y passenger in to J at the gate is minimal. You're betting without that chance of moving to J we'll pay for it instead. I'm betting instead that without the chance of moving to J we'l just move to other airlines instead. I have a thread with 100+ pages of posts indicating that I'm right and you're wrong. Period.

nowinyow

Removing loyal customers from the odd upgrade, thus enabling more non-rev to travel up front, is not going towards creating more people to buy into J.

Those loyal customers, btw...aren't getting into J for free. I buy Z fares, I buy latitude, I buy Flex. With those purchases, I get "currency" from AC to use towards "buying" up to J class, on occasion. Now, for the same dollar spend, I get far fewer credits with an inflated cost to use them.

Everyone has their reason to stay with AC or not.

I'm out. Not precisely for any one single reason, but more because I can see the writing on the wall.
-AC is slowly going the route of the European carriers insofar as domestic J. Rouge will become, over time, the domestic standard. If not in name, at least in practice.
-Lounge access will continue to become restricted, eventually to only those in paid J. Of course, anyone will always be able to buy their way into MLL's for many hundreds of dollars per year.
-Removing fuel tax surcharges on AE tickets is mostly moot going forward. Very few will be earning enough points to actually use them on International flights.
-Compromises to domestic travel to enhance International.
-Devolution of AE earnings. Someone that flies round trip YOW-YYZ, or YEG-YYC 40 times per year for example, will now earn about 22,000 per year v 40,000 per year, for the exact same cost. That alone is incentive to just buy tango.

I'm not looking for freebies in life. I'm looking for value on dollars spent. I don't see that value any more with AC.

Good luck.

supatight80

I'm not following, you say that they should (not) be directed back at folks who organized the epgrade program?

FlyerTalker683455

By the same logic you should remove J redemptions from any FF program. I never ever in 20 years would consider redeeming for Y except on short haul.

So, I spend money at home depot on my Visa card and voila! Something for nothing, courtesy of Air Canada.

We have suggested previously to segregate your AQM from regular miles and allow redemptions only on those AQM in certain classes or for IKK. You say the aeroplab contract doesn't allow it, so you hit all your SE over the head instead.

Let me be clear. I don't think any of your customers give a rat's behind about your business terms with AP and you don't disclose them anyways. So for all we know it's just a shell game (most likely is anyways).

Your "I am not a child" comment on a thread about out of place comments you made before doesn't show good judgement or social media skills. But I do appreciate the tremendous insight it gives into the psyche of the AC executive suite.

YOWie

I have to object. With every flight I take I have been paying for eupgrades to use on the occasional flight. Be it tango, flex, latitude or business, they are all pre-payment to AC for a future benefit. The only reason I have eupgrades and the ability to use them is because of the number of times I fly with AC and its partners each year. One doesn't acheive SE with a vacation each year to the Caribbean.

Nobody objects to AC making a profit. I expect the vast majority of us would prefer that AC remains profitable. What is unconscionable is dramatically changing the rules of the games AFTER many of us have locked in our status for another year. The term bait & switch immediately comes to mind. I get that the T&Cs allow you to change the rules at any time but doesn't anyone at AC have any morals or ethics?

Still shaking my head trying to understand the thought processes that went into this gem of an idea.

porcupinetailings

By the end of the week I will have completed my 95th segment on Air Canada this year. I would like to apologize to Air Canada and all of those who feel that the thousands of dollars that have been spent have cheapened you. You no longer have to worry because I have begun to purchase my 2015 air travel to your competition, and I will happily cheapen them.

rankourabu

Executive suite? I thought only Ben S had keys to that?

I dont know where you've been, but this is nothing new. It reflects a long running trend with Air Canada, and part of the you should be happy we are letting you fly with us culture.

*voted 2nd rudest onboard staff in North America, staff acts like they are doing you a favour, and you should be feel privilidged to fly them.
*hour long waits on phone, because, hey what are you gonna do?
*$500 copays if you fly 95k with us, because, hey, what are you gonna do?


Out-of-pocket leisure flyers, E35s and E50s have felt the brunt of the cuts in the last 3 years or so. There was no sympathy then from the (mostly OPM) SE crowd. Heck, there was downright cheerleading.

Now that the SE bubble has burst, its interesting to see the same fanboys finally realize it was all a sham to get you to part with your money.