View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
Signed in members with 90 days / 90 posts can edit this Wikipost; wiki contents may be printed by using the 
(lower right wiki corner)
Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Nov 18, 2014, 3:54 pm
#106
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Either at the shooting range or anywhere good beer can be found...
Posts: 51,054
Nov 18, 2014, 6:58 pm
#107
Join Date: Nov 2014
Programs: DL FO, DL Reserve, AMEX Plat, Priority Pass, Global Entry
Posts: 248
Look under my username. I'm a brand new member. What do I know about the "Talkboard"? Absolutely NOTHING.
But I voted.
The day the elections opened, on what, 14 Nov? I voted. Why?
Because I happened to log in that day, like everyday in my freshman newbyness, and lo and behold the poster above me had that "I Voted" emblem under her or his username. And I thought to myself, I'll be dang gummed if make another post without having voted. What will they think I am? A selfish free loader?
So I fished around, found the links, read everyone's election statements, found a huge difference between candidates based on statements alone, which gave me enough of a basis to feel comfortable making a couple of selections, and I VOTED.
If that icon had not been there in the poster before me, I would not have voted. I just got here. It would have taken me a long time to feel invested enough to vote. But that symbol under the user name? I wasn't going to be caught hanging around here without voting.
The point: Good behavior is motivated by little things like that icon.
Something to think about when considering an "informative" button.
But I voted.
The day the elections opened, on what, 14 Nov? I voted. Why?
Because I happened to log in that day, like everyday in my freshman newbyness, and lo and behold the poster above me had that "I Voted" emblem under her or his username. And I thought to myself, I'll be dang gummed if make another post without having voted. What will they think I am? A selfish free loader?
So I fished around, found the links, read everyone's election statements, found a huge difference between candidates based on statements alone, which gave me enough of a basis to feel comfortable making a couple of selections, and I VOTED.
If that icon had not been there in the poster before me, I would not have voted. I just got here. It would have taken me a long time to feel invested enough to vote. But that symbol under the user name? I wasn't going to be caught hanging around here without voting.
The point: Good behavior is motivated by little things like that icon.
Something to think about when considering an "informative" button.
Nov 18, 2014, 8:00 pm
#108
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Programs: UALifetimePremierGold, Marriott LifetimeTitanium
Posts: 71,113
First welcome to FT!
I've already posted above why I'm not enthusiastic about a like button. Whether it's one line or not it takes up real estate and is distracting. Plus I've seen likes given to posts that gave wrong info. I'm it sure the same problem would exist even if it said informative. The other, probably most important, thing is that whether a post has likes or not is irrelevant to me. More important is, am I getting information that I deem valuable.
Cheers.
I've already posted above why I'm not enthusiastic about a like button. Whether it's one line or not it takes up real estate and is distracting. Plus I've seen likes given to posts that gave wrong info. I'm it sure the same problem would exist even if it said informative. The other, probably most important, thing is that whether a post has likes or not is irrelevant to me. More important is, am I getting information that I deem valuable.
Cheers.
Nov 19, 2014, 2:00 am
#109
Moderator, Finnair
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Gold, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,176
...
I'm often surprised when my (more often that not TOO wordy) posts are "liked" on the few forums I have frequented. The affirmation helps me know that there is at least some resonating frequency in common with others who feel the same way, even though they may not have had the time to articulate them.
I am equally edified (well, maybe more like mortified) when, after posting something I feel strongly about, and took great pains to advocate... is met with crickets.
...
I'm often surprised when my (more often that not TOO wordy) posts are "liked" on the few forums I have frequented. The affirmation helps me know that there is at least some resonating frequency in common with others who feel the same way, even though they may not have had the time to articulate them.
I am equally edified (well, maybe more like mortified) when, after posting something I feel strongly about, and took great pains to advocate... is met with crickets.
...
I have seen this in other places, where opinions have become very uniform to the point where I've have lost all interest in the forum. I think uniform forums does not drive anything forward, they just conserves everything.
So for the reason that voting systems tend to shape forums, I am against a like-button.
Nov 19, 2014, 9:46 am
#110
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Durham, NC (RDU/GSO/CLT)
Programs: AA EXP/MM, DL GM, UA Platinum, HH DIA, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Platinum, Marriott Titanium, Hertz PC
Posts: 33,857
Hmm, that one is a little better, but I still think people will play favorites and the wrong stuff will get labeled informative. It's bad enough we have members with high post counts who post wrong information, but now it will be sanctioned wrong information. Still, I prefer that to "Liked".
Nov 20, 2014, 4:37 pm
#111
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: LHR- ish
Programs: MUCCI, BA Blue
Posts: 4,295
I belong to a forum which has a long row of buttons for use: like, agree, disagree, informative/useful, craftsmanship/clever, thanks, funny, friendly/sympathetic, unsure of meaning. The ratings are displayed under a post, like in the example above and if you hover over somebody's username you see how many positive/neutral/negative ratings they've had. Pretty much everyone finds them easy to use (and this forum has an older and less tech savvy membership than FT).
The rating buttons aren't obtrusive and they work very well. It means that rather than 29 sypathetic posts about my brother being rushed to hospital a few months ago I got 29 friendly/sympathetic votes - far less clutter.
I don't see them being used to reward wrong information, or as a popularity thing - it's much more subtle than just positive/negative ratings which, IMO, are a destructive influence. Disagrees do occasionally prompt toys being thrown out of prams, but generally by people who are prone to that kind of thing.
That said, the forum in question is rather less stormy than FT - sex, religion and politics are banned subjects. I'm certainly not sure that an 'unsure of meaning' button is appropriate for a forum with so many people for whom English is a second language.
I would see the advantages for FT of implementing this system as being:
*Less post padding, since it would take away an excuse for doing so
*Fewer posts with no useful content
*Less cluttered threads with information easier to find
*More obvious how useful somebody's contributions are/what they contribute
Disadvantages would potentially be:
*Use of negative ratings as a form of bullying/rudeness
*Ratings causing an argument
*Risk of posts being erroneously described as useful
*More double posts - at the moment I have a bit of a problem because a TR type thread of mine has accumulated numerous likes but no replies so it looks like I will have to double post in order to get the next installment up.
The rating buttons aren't obtrusive and they work very well. It means that rather than 29 sypathetic posts about my brother being rushed to hospital a few months ago I got 29 friendly/sympathetic votes - far less clutter.
I don't see them being used to reward wrong information, or as a popularity thing - it's much more subtle than just positive/negative ratings which, IMO, are a destructive influence. Disagrees do occasionally prompt toys being thrown out of prams, but generally by people who are prone to that kind of thing.
That said, the forum in question is rather less stormy than FT - sex, religion and politics are banned subjects. I'm certainly not sure that an 'unsure of meaning' button is appropriate for a forum with so many people for whom English is a second language.
I would see the advantages for FT of implementing this system as being:
*Less post padding, since it would take away an excuse for doing so
*Fewer posts with no useful content
*Less cluttered threads with information easier to find
*More obvious how useful somebody's contributions are/what they contribute
Disadvantages would potentially be:
*Use of negative ratings as a form of bullying/rudeness
*Ratings causing an argument
*Risk of posts being erroneously described as useful
*More double posts - at the moment I have a bit of a problem because a TR type thread of mine has accumulated numerous likes but no replies so it looks like I will have to double post in order to get the next installment up.
Nov 22, 2014, 2:46 am
#112
Join Date: Nov 2014
Programs: DL FO, DL Reserve, AMEX Plat, Priority Pass, Global Entry
Posts: 248
While I sympathise with the the affirmation part, I see trouble with a like/dislike voting system as it tends to make a forum very uniform. Those who gets affirmation keeps on posting, those who don't move on.
I have seen this in other places, where opinions have become very uniform to the point where I've have lost all interest in the forum. I think uniform forums does not drive anything forward, they just conserves everything.
.
I have seen this in other places, where opinions have become very uniform to the point where I've have lost all interest in the forum. I think uniform forums does not drive anything forward, they just conserves everything.
.
At the same time, in my experience, the gradual homogenization of opinions within a specific forum subculture has never driven me away, even if I disagree. What drives me to "move on" is an over abundance of snide, snarky, hateful, and hurtful remarks that attack the person instead of addressing the point or the issue. There's always going to be some of that here and there, but when it runs rampant, I move on.
I want to believe that in forums where there is a simple mechanism for optionally reviewing responses, there is some sense of accountability for what is spewed, and I want to believe this leads people to take more responsibility for what they say... leading to that self moderated pause before pressing "Enter."
But I can't say that I have any real evidence of this that rises to the level of fact. Only my perceptions. And I can't say I perceived the monoculture you described as a gate closure to some people. But now that you've brought it up, it makes reasonable sense.
Incidentally, this very discussion exemplifies what can be really great about forums in their highest and best use... the topic categorized discussion and sharing of ideas in civil discourse. And we didn't need a post rating system to get this done. I think I care more about continuing the conversation rather than whatever the outcome may be that comes of it.
At the same time, on another thread in the Delta Forum (which I've noticed is ripe with fractiousness) an FT member took some time to post a diatribe on the changes to Delta's FF program, but rather than pure vitriol, the member creatively couched it in the cultural idiom of an old televised soliloquy. I didn't read every line, but I thought the idea was clever. Yet I was shocked at some of the sharp tongued responses. I really wanted to check a box that said "Not Nice" for a couple of those responses, but that wouldn't be very nice either.
So instead, I would have liked to have patted the original poster on the back with an "approval" check box. None existed, so I made a post saying that I appreciated the cleverness of the effort, whether in agreement or not. I think that fits squarely into what exelincfc said immediately above... where the optional rating of posts conveys support without making a whole post to do so.
There are thought provoking points being made on all sides of this issue here.
Dec 7, 2014, 11:49 am
#113
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,624
I have opened a new thread for discussion of a specific proposal of "Like" button functionality:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...-feedback.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...-feedback.html
Dec 8, 2014, 12:06 pm
#114
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Formerly HPN, but then DCA and IAD for a while, and now back to HPN!
Programs: Honestly, I've been out of the travel game so long that I'm not even sure. Maybe Marriott Gold?
Posts: 10,677
I scan for threads that are of interest to me. Whether they have likes or not or are highly rated is irrelevant.
Also on MP I've seen likes given for information that is 100% wrong, which is another reason I don't pay much attention to likes. Not always a good barometer of accurate or valuable info.
Cheers.
Also on MP I've seen likes given for information that is 100% wrong, which is another reason I don't pay much attention to likes. Not always a good barometer of accurate or valuable info.
Cheers.
Dec 9, 2014, 10:18 am
#115
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
Programs: Lifetime (for now) Gold MM, HH Gold, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 28,878
I personally would say no to any type of like, helpful, not helpful and etc button but if there is going to be a "like", "helpful" or other button du jour, I would say no to any type of "negative" (i.e. not helpful) button as all that will do is tick off the poster who made the comment and if a post is truly not helpful and along the lines where it needs to be moderated, then that's what the Report Bad Post button is for.
Dec 9, 2014, 5:40 pm
#116
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BOS/ORH
Programs: AS 75K
Posts: 18,323
A few other forums I am on, things get marked not helpful out of spite even though the information is 100% correct. For likes there's always Facebook or MP
Dec 10, 2014, 8:56 am
#117
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SFO
Programs: Lifetime (for now) Gold MM, HH Gold, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 28,878
Agreed ^ and let's say for whatever reason, a member doesn't want to have their posts liked or "helpfulled"-do they have an option/choice to turn this feature off? I also think that this will be come more of a "status thing" and simply put, what's the difference between a member posting something like "thank you, this was just what I was looking for" vs clicking a like/helpful button? Personally, if it was me, I'd like to see someone post a thank you than see how many likes/helpfuls I rec'd
Dec 10, 2014, 9:20 am
#118
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN Companion Pass, A-list preferred, Hyatt Globalist; United Club Lietime (sic) Member
Posts: 21,624
As I see it, the difference is that some people for whatever reason won't write a sentence to thank the poster but will post a +1 or click a button. I would like a button to replace those content-free +1 posts, not the full sentence replies which I agree are valuable.
Dec 10, 2014, 10:33 am
#119
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SGF
Programs: AS, AA, UA, AGR S (former 75K, GLD, 1K, and S+, now an elite peon)
Posts: 23,194
Dec 10, 2014, 1:26 pm
#120
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Durham, NC (RDU/GSO/CLT)
Programs: AA EXP/MM, DL GM, UA Platinum, HH DIA, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Platinum, Marriott Titanium, Hertz PC
Posts: 33,857