hm500

My experience in the UK has been that they are ABLE to accept cards without a chip, but they just refuse to do it, aren't allowed to do it, or don't even know they can do it...

I've had to show a barmaid how to use the machine to swipe my card before. I've also had a bar owner flat out lie to me and say their machines couldn't accept cards without a chip. After I had been drinking there nearly every day for a week and using my card. I've also been to a couple of supermarkets where they'll sometimes accept the swipe card, and other times they won't, depending on who's working at the register.

I'm assuming this is because they want to avoid the charges associated with a credit card transaction. Am I wrong? If so, why else would a business simply refuse to accept a credit card?


These US cards being issued with a chip -- are they actual credit cards or are they debit cards?
Do you still get the points/miles/rewards when you use the chip instead of swiping?

kebosabi

The same reason why gas stations all over the US assumes everyone that uses them is an American therefore has a ZIP code for verification. We are the 99% of the users of the gas station pumps here in the US, therefore it doesn't make sense for gas pumps in the US to consider about the possibility that a 1% tourist from Canada would want to use their VISA cards whose country doesn't use five digit ZIP codes nor even consider that their postal codes have letters in them.

The same reason why we don't expect minimum wage earning Taco Bell employees here in the US to know that a Japanese person who whips out a JCB card or a Chinese person whipping out a Union Pay card can pay for their 99 cent taco by processing it just like a Discover Card. Why would Taco Bell would even train their employees about that? Ninety-nine percent of the people who visit a Taco Bell in the US are Americans, why would they even care about the 1% possibility that a Japanese or Chinese person might whip out a JCB or Union Pay card? Do we give a .... if the Japanese or the Chinese starts getting angry about the service? Heck no, the answer is "you're not our major clientele, we could care less, welcome to America."

Now the tables are turned when we visit abroad, let's use the UK example as you mentioned. Ninety-nine percent of the cardholders in the UK have chip cards. The tables are turned and we become the 1% when we visit the UK; we're not their major clientele. So why would they care about the 1% issue of Americans who still uses outdated cards? If 99% of their clientele has chip cards, they're not going to spend thousands of British pounds to re-write their entire SOP manual for their minimum wage earning cashiers for the sake of "in the event that you ever see a weird American who have cards without a chip..." Again, the tables are turned. If you become angry about this service they could care less, "you're not our major clientele, we could care less, welcome to the UK."

At least the problem for you was easy because you were able to communicate with the cashier or the bartender to take it because you and the merchant speak the same English language, albeit with accent differences. Try going through the same experience in a country where they don't speak English and the issue becomes more of a headache.

Kinda puts into perspective how we pay ridiculous amount in annual fees and this issue has never been considered, eh? Doesn't it strike odd that Americans pay $300 in annual fees for a AMEX Platinum card which only has the mag-stripe when other countries' AMEX Platinum cards have both the mag-stripe and the EMV chip so that it actually works all over the world? Last time I checked, it was called AMERICAN EXPRESS, not CANADIAN EXPRESS. Then why does an AMEX Platinum card issued in Canada be more advanced and be a true global card than our cards, while we spend $300 in annual fees for a card that's only "theoretically" supposed to work abroad because they don't incorporate a chip on to US issued AMEX Platinum cards. FAIL


No chipped debit cards in the US have been issued yet; they're all credit cards. You receive miles/points/rewards when you use them through the chip instead of swiping and signing. The BA Chase card with the EMV Chip-and-Signature receives Avios points whether you use it via the outdated mag-stripe method or the chip-and-Signature method. It's the same thing how we receive miles whether we use the mag-stripe or the stupid cell phone sticker RFID tag that Citibank issues for our AAdvantage cards. The method of transaction don't matter; if it posts as a credit purchase you earn miles. Besides, how do you think the Brits/Canadians/Germans/Japanese earn miles on their credit cards? Do you think the only way they earn miles is when they visit the US and do the swipe and sign? Of course not; they receive the same rewards through chip-and-PIN back home.

hm500

I have this card, without the chip though. How can I get it with the chip??


As for the rest of your post... I see your point, but swiping a card isn't exactly rocket science. It really seems like the merchants are actively avoiding it.

kebosabi

The BA Chase card is available on a per request basis now. If you have it, call them up and have them issue you a card with the chip on it.

As for the second part, it's not like they're avoiding it. From the perspective of minimum wage earning cashiers who never been trained on it, less ever seen a card that only has a mag-stripe, nor even carry a card themselves that has only a mag-stripe, it is rocket science.

Put it this way: Most cashiers don't make a career out of being a cashier all their lives, most people there are for temporary jobs or something until they grab something better. It's the same in the US, Canada, Japan, the UK and pretty much any another country.

Maybe 10 years ago the cashiers would've known how to do it. But those who were cashiers 10 years ago probably would've moved up the food chain by now in other areas of work. By now cashiers have been replaced with the younger generation who are more acquainted with seeing people with chip-and-PIN cards. Understandable, by now 99% of their clientele uses chip-and-PIN, for the most part they probably never even had to do swipe-and-sign, more or less even seen one that only has the mag-stripe, and even more is that their own cards that the cashier use when they go buy groceries or whatever have the chip as well.

So what happens if a 1% American shows up? Maybe the older cashiers who've been at the job for 10 years because that's the only skill they have will know how to do it. But for the younger cashiers, those in their late teens or in their twenties who are only there part-time until they find something better or till they graduate college or some sort, they probably wouldn't know, they never seen one, likely don't even carry one themselves, and likewise never had to do it nor even given much thought about it either.

In the eyes of the younger generation, swipe-and-sign is rocket science since they never been trained on it. Sure it's easy, but stuff like that takes repetition, and repetition ain't happening because 99% of their clientele uses Chip-and-PIN.

Case in point: I was in Rosarito, Mexico last week. I used to go there every month ten years ago, and most of the cashiers at the supermarket (not where most Americans go) knew be my name and knew how to do swipe and sign. Like you said, it's not rocket science; swipe and sign was the norm for both US and Mexican VISA cards at the time.

Flash forward ten years later, I saw that the newer cashiers were stumped how to do swipe and sign. They were all young and most had to call a manager on how to do it. The manager was the cashier ten years ago and still remembered me by my name. He said that the younger cashiers don't know swipe-and-sign because all Mexican VISA cards have the chip on them these days so most people buy it through the chip now. And what's the likelihood of an American visiting a Mexican supermarket in this part of Rosarito? I understood and the next time around I just began paying in Mexican Pesos instead.

Now if you go to any tourist bar in Rosarito where they see lots of Americans, sure you'll have no problems doing swipe and sign. Swipe-and-sign is repetitious to the bartenders and workers there because in all likelihood 70-80% of their clientele are American tourists. But once you go off to the off beaten track where the locals hang around like the supermarket which rarely sees Americans, it becomes a hit-or-miss.

Heck, the same holds true for most things. Ever tried opening an European house door with multi-point turn locks or figure out how to use the bidet on Japanese toilets? For majority of Americans, even opening the door in Europe or flushing the toilet in Japan becomes rocket science because we're not accustomed to it; for them it's easy because they use it repetitiously.


Lesson here is that even if you think it ain't rocket science, that's because you're looking at from your own perspective. If you analyze the details, you'll learn that as time progresses and if it doesn't start to occur repetitiously, it does become rocket science. Hey, just look at how the younger kids these days don't even know how to write checks or send stuff by mail anymore and actually have to Google it or watch a youtube video on how to do them. I'M NOT JOKING, there actually is a youtube video on how to send a letter and how to write a check with comments saying "thanks, I never done this so it helped me a lot."

Surprised? But if you analyze it, it's understandable. Kids today haven't become dumber, it's just that with online billpay, easy to obtain credit and debit cards, e-mail, Facebook and Twitter, younger kids these days in all likelihood never even sent a letter or have written a check anymore; if writing a letter or a check doesn't happen repetitiously, it becomes rocket science to them.

If this rationale still doesn't seem to make sense, go visit your local supermarket and try to pay for your groceries with a check. In all likelihood, the younger cashiers would be puzzled on how to handle payment by a check these days because nowadays, most people just pay for their stuff with debit or credit cards. Paying for groceries with a check was the norm when we were kids; we saw our parents doing it, and the cashiers back then all knew how to do it. Nowadays, 99% of Americans pretty much pay for their groceries by cash, credit, or debit and the 1% who still writes checks tend to be the old-timer grandma and grandpas. Since it doesn't happen repetitiously, you'll likely see younger kids asking the manager or an older cashier for help, or even possibly to have them say "sorry, we don't take checks anymore" for the sake that they're more worried about getting through to the other customers standing behind the line faster.

mia

The process of swiping a magnetic stripe card in a chip terminal is not always as simple as sliding the card through a slot. At some merchants the card must first be inserted in the chip reader, rejected, and only then can it be swiped. This is to prevent the cashier from bypassing the PIN requirement by swiping a chip-enabled card. In other words, the terminal must verify that the card has no chip before it will unlock the swipe reader.

This said, I have never had a swipe card declined in the UK.

mia

A score of posts discussing the merits of Chip & PIN have been moved to the opinion thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...iscussion.html

Please use this thread only for practical information which will help travelers understand how to use their swipe or Chip & Signature cards in Chip & PIN markets. Us the other other thread to express your contempt or approval of the technology.

PlatDrew

I have a Platinum AMEX and was emailed an invitation to partake in a survey regarding many aspects of the card itself and possible future changes. One part of the survey stated they are considering issuing cards with the "chip" in it like the UK and Euro cards currently have. They asked how important this type of feature was to me and I rated a 10 as VERY IMPORTANT. We shall see what happens.

kebosabi

Some of the people who have the AA Citi Executive / AAdvantage World Elite Mastercard are now reporting that they've begun receiving the EMV version on a per-request basis:

Citi AAdvantage Executive card w/ EMV chip

However, as again with the other chipped cards so far, the card seems to be Chip-and-Signature basing on the info packet that the person received.

chelmkamp

North Carolina State Employees Credit Union (ncsecu.org) has converted Visa debit cards to include EMV. Haven't seen one yet but may go open an account and give it a try.

jbcarioca

Not always. The security and storage process for conventional mag-stripe cards with pins and EMV compliant cards is different. Mag strip pins will work on most ATM terminals but they will not work in most non-ATM POS terminals. As always YMMV.

jbcarioca

Refusal to accept a signature card is based often on the higher discount rate they pay to accept a non-EMV compliant card, and the fact that the merchant often must accept full liability for the non-EMV card. Thus although they can accept them many do not want to. It all depends on how much they want US, Russian and Jamaican business. Everyone else has EMV.

jamar

And Chinese business. I've yet to see a single EMV Visa card here. Some UnionPay cards are getting chipped as the government demands a full transition to chip cards by 2015, but that's only for the local network. Thus far the only reliable way to get a Visa/MC chip card in China is through one bank (Bank of China, with the cards actually issued by its Hong Kong division). (interestingly enough, they offer a chipped US$ card even though the US hasn't switched yet)

sdsearch

You mean as with most other chipped cards so far.

A thread in the Diners Club forum:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/diner...-chip-pin.html

documents that Diners Club members who have gotten replacement cards recently have gotten chip cards and can request the PIN to use with the chip.

(Of course, no one in the US/Canada who doesn't already have a Diners Club card can apply for one yet. They're waiting to deal with a mountain of problems that arose in the Citi-to-BOM/Harris transitition before they start accepting new applications.)

JEFFJAGUAR

And hardly anybody in the USA and most of the countries I visit in western Europe take DC either from wht I can see.

jamar

So in that case it's a good thing that US/Canada -issued DC cards are also MasterCard, then.