WestJet to launch ultra-low-cost carrier 'Swoop’
Jul 5, 2018, 11:14 pm
#241
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: YVR
Programs: AC 75K, BA Gold, Marriott Platinum, National EE, Sixt Platinum, Hertz PC, AVIS PC
Posts: 1,913
Jul 7, 2018, 9:38 am
#243
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Canada
Programs: Marriott Plat; Air Canada E75K; Westjet Platinum
Posts: 1,161
Not happy about Swoop taking over YEG YXX from WJ. What really bugs me is that benefit being Gold is not recognized at all and also don't accrue WJ dollar. I know they claim it is a different company, yes, on paper. But for a WJ Gold, it is a drastic difference. Swoop will claim that the low fare makes up for it. No. Prior to Swoop I was getting great fares already on mainline WJ. Swoop prices are not that much different. From my POV, Swoop means a service decline but no significant saving for me. In fact I have to pay even more now because everything cost extra on Swoop.
Jul 7, 2018, 12:34 pm
#244
Join Date: May 2013
Location: west coast best coast
Programs: TINDER GOLD, STARBUCKS GOLD, COSTCO EXECUTIVE!!
Posts: 3,989
Swoop is a disaster so far. I'm not sure why they decided to forego GDS and partnerships thinking Canadians would just book direct. Most have never even heard of the airline, so why would they book direct if they don't even know it exists?
The other factor is that Swoop's network is basically just an overlap of Flair Air, trying to kill them off. Bad news is that people have probably heard of Flair Air before Swoop. Did I mention that Flair also flies to real airports and has an even bigger route network?
This whole LCC project wouldn't survive on its own without burning WS cash. And likely won't survive even if taken over by WS as an "airline within an airline" (as many previous experiments in aviation history have already proved).
There is no future for Swoop.
The other factor is that Swoop's network is basically just an overlap of Flair Air, trying to kill them off. Bad news is that people have probably heard of Flair Air before Swoop. Did I mention that Flair also flies to real airports and has an even bigger route network?
This whole LCC project wouldn't survive on its own without burning WS cash. And likely won't survive even if taken over by WS as an "airline within an airline" (as many previous experiments in aviation history have already proved).
There is no future for Swoop.
Jul 7, 2018, 2:03 pm
#245
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,444
Swoop is a disaster so far. I'm not sure why they decided to forego GDS and partnerships thinking Canadians would just book direct. Most have never even heard of the airline, so why would they book direct if they don't even know it exists?
.......
There is no future for Swoop.
.......
There is no future for Swoop.
By design there is no GDS or partner integration or high-cost airport usage, GDS booking costs will consume all profit on a ULCC ticket when working to a 7 cent CASM ex-fuel at Swoop compared with 10 cents at mainline.
If you don't know why Swoop is set up the way it is, there is public information in this WestJet presentation, the Swoop specific info starts on slide 12: https://www.westjet.com/assets/wj-we...vestor-day.pdf
Jul 7, 2018, 3:13 pm
#246
Join Date: May 2013
Location: west coast best coast
Programs: TINDER GOLD, STARBUCKS GOLD, COSTCO EXECUTIVE!!
Posts: 3,989
I'm not sure where you are getting your info from, Swoop bookings have been very strong, based on information from the people at WestJet who are close to Swoop that I know.
By design there is no GDS or partner integration or high-cost airport usage, GDS booking costs will consume all profit on a ULCC ticket when working to a 7 cent CASM ex-fuel at Swoop compared with 10 cents at mainline.
If you don't know why Swoop is set up the way it is, there is public information in this WestJet presentation, the Swoop specific info starts on slide 12: https://www.westjet.com/assets/wj-we...vestor-day.pdf
By design there is no GDS or partner integration or high-cost airport usage, GDS booking costs will consume all profit on a ULCC ticket when working to a 7 cent CASM ex-fuel at Swoop compared with 10 cents at mainline.
If you don't know why Swoop is set up the way it is, there is public information in this WestJet presentation, the Swoop specific info starts on slide 12: https://www.westjet.com/assets/wj-we...vestor-day.pdf
However, even most LCCs integrate into GDS in a limited capacity: Jin Air, Tigerair, Jetstar, Scoot, Eurowings, Joon (all examples in the presentation) can be booked via GDS. The fare buckets may be different, but they are there.
Right now I can't even see Swoop pull up in a simple Google Flights search. On my radar, it does not even exist.
So I'm surprised to hear that Swoop bookings are doing well.
Jul 7, 2018, 3:21 pm
#247
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Canada
Programs: Marriott Plat; Air Canada E75K; Westjet Platinum
Posts: 1,161
Getting Westjet Encore to fly YEG YXX would have been fine with us instead of Swoop. Encore has the low cost structure already. I would have retained benefits as a Gold. Example of December booking would require a stop over in YYC and turns it into a 4+ hour trip. RT $316 on sale. Currently I can go non stop RT for $189 with a departure July 21. AC still recognize status when flying Rouge which is their lowest cost partner.
Jul 7, 2018, 3:22 pm
#248
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,444
I stand corrected then.
However, even most LCCs integrate into GDS in a limited capacity: Jin Air, Tigerair, Jetstar, Scoot, Eurowings, Joon (all examples in the presentation) can be booked via GDS. The fare buckets may be different, but they are there.
Right now I can't even see Swoop pull up in a simple Google Flights search. On my radar, it does not even exist.
So I'm surprised to hear that Swoop bookings are doing well.
However, even most LCCs integrate into GDS in a limited capacity: Jin Air, Tigerair, Jetstar, Scoot, Eurowings, Joon (all examples in the presentation) can be booked via GDS. The fare buckets may be different, but they are there.
Right now I can't even see Swoop pull up in a simple Google Flights search. On my radar, it does not even exist.
So I'm surprised to hear that Swoop bookings are doing well.
Jul 7, 2018, 4:14 pm
#250
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,444
Many won't be the same type of traveller. Many Swoop and Flair travellers will typically look at bus and car sharing as well as flying or not travel at all. Towards the end of this month all-in prices return on WestJet and Air Canada that will show up on Expedia from YEG to YHM or YYZ are typically $600 to $1000, on CheapOair or Flight Hub where Swoop and Flair show up, it is typically less than $400 return before bags.
Jul 7, 2018, 9:22 pm
#251
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: YVR
Programs: AC 75K, BA Gold, Marriott Platinum, National EE, Sixt Platinum, Hertz PC, AVIS PC
Posts: 1,913
Getting Westjet Encore to fly YEG YXX would have been fine with us instead of Swoop. Encore has the low cost structure already. I would have retained benefits as a Gold. Example of December booking would require a stop over in YYC and turns it into a 4+ hour trip. RT $316 on sale. Currently I can go non stop RT for $189 with a departure July 21. AC still recognize status when flying Rouge which is their lowest cost partner.
Ron.
Jul 8, 2018, 8:56 am
#252
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 980
So I guess one can confidently say that YHM and YXX are most definitely real airports.
Jul 8, 2018, 10:48 am
#253
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: YYG
Programs: airlines and hotels and rental cars - oh my!
Posts: 2,997
Swoop is a disaster so far. I'm not sure why they decided to forego GDS and partnerships thinking Canadians would just book direct. Most have never even heard of the airline, so why would they book direct if they don't even know it exists?
The other factor is that Swoop's network is basically just an overlap of Flair Air, trying to kill them off. Bad news is that people have probably heard of Flair Air before Swoop. Did I mention that Flair also flies to real airports and has an even bigger route network?
This whole LCC project wouldn't survive on its own without burning WS cash. And likely won't survive even if taken over by WS as an "airline within an airline" (as many previous experiments in aviation history have already proved).
There is no future for Swoop.
The other factor is that Swoop's network is basically just an overlap of Flair Air, trying to kill them off. Bad news is that people have probably heard of Flair Air before Swoop. Did I mention that Flair also flies to real airports and has an even bigger route network?
This whole LCC project wouldn't survive on its own without burning WS cash. And likely won't survive even if taken over by WS as an "airline within an airline" (as many previous experiments in aviation history have already proved).
There is no future for Swoop.
Jul 8, 2018, 4:08 pm
#254
Join Date: May 2013
Location: west coast best coast
Programs: TINDER GOLD, STARBUCKS GOLD, COSTCO EXECUTIVE!!
Posts: 3,989
Real airport? As opposed to a fake one? So YHM and YXX are fake airports? Is there a fair sized terminal with CBSA and CATSA services? Yes! Is there an air traffic control tower? Yes. Are there commercial aircraft that take off and land? Yes.
So I guess one can confidently say that YHM and YXX are most definitely real airports.
Jul 11, 2018, 11:05 am
#255
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,444
The best ULCC airport has the following characteristics:
Cheap building (such as insulated steel shed type construction)
Compact rectangular terminal with polished concrete floor
Minimal seating to optimise floor space usage
Cheap land cost away from major cities
No jet bridges to keep operational cost down and allow front and rear ground loading
Single runway with terminal halfway along to minimise taxi distance
Lots of cheap parking nearby (may even be in leased farmers fields)
Subsidized (by local authority) or even zero landing fees.
Where Ryanair is by far the majority operator at European airports, this "pure" model is normal, Frankfurt Hahn is a good example: Photo of Frankfurt Hahn Terminal
Cheap building (such as insulated steel shed type construction)
Compact rectangular terminal with polished concrete floor
Minimal seating to optimise floor space usage
Cheap land cost away from major cities
No jet bridges to keep operational cost down and allow front and rear ground loading
Single runway with terminal halfway along to minimise taxi distance
Lots of cheap parking nearby (may even be in leased farmers fields)
Subsidized (by local authority) or even zero landing fees.
Where Ryanair is by far the majority operator at European airports, this "pure" model is normal, Frankfurt Hahn is a good example: Photo of Frankfurt Hahn Terminal