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-   -   Avoiding tipping in the U.S. -altogether! (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/usa/1011855-avoiding-tipping-u-s-altogether.html)

jackal Oct 31, 2009 8:35 pm


Originally Posted by jimbo99 (Post 12744533)
Competitive visible largess - a great sport. People in tipping cultures love to be seen tipping. It re-enforces (or buys) social status.

That's not my experience. Whenever I'm dining out with another person who's paying the bill, they often are very discreet when signing the credit card receipt and writing the tip. And I am always discreet when doing so, as well. Not only that, I can attest that my motives are purely generous when leaving a tip: I'm not doing it to buy social status or appreciation but rather as a gesture of appreciation for well-rendered service. I also appreciate the idea that it puts the customer in control: in that vein, it's no less appropriate than a commission due a salesperson, a bonus due a manager, or a profit due a business owner. Yes, prompt, professional service should be given regardless of the circumstance, but surely you can't argue that salespeople, managers, and owners don't deserve to reap rewards from their hard work either! (Yes, not everybody is motivated by money, but some people are, and so a bonus structure that incorporates all of the things that motivate people--money, recognition, and accountability--is the most comprehensive way to ensure good performance across the board.)

tuapekastar Oct 31, 2009 10:16 pm

In Australia, tipping happens, and I do tip, modestly (max ~10%, but often just rounding up a little for restaurants and cabs), on occasions. There are also plenty of occasions I don't, just depends on circumstances. However, with the possible exception of very high-end restaurants, I cannot think of a single instance, where it is considered 'obligatory' or automatic or really really expected. If you were not happy with the service even in a high-end restaurant you'd be well within your rights not to tip.

It is clear that all the posters here have been brought up in societies where tipping varies from just about all service staff, through to occasional services, to no tipping at all.

I do find it odd that servers in the US can be 'paid' such a poxy hourly rate and be expected to make it up in tips. I think this really means the steak you see on the menu for $30 is really $35. But that's the way it is and I accept it, even if I don't understand how it came to be so.

Nothing deep and meaningful in this statement, but I think when visiting another place which has different habits and customs, it becomes someone to try and adapt to those customs as far as is possible and reasonable, as unpalatable as it may be.

I can remember tipping ladies who were cutting my hair in the US. Unheard of (AFAIK) here. But I did it as it was custom (or I certainly hope it was :o).

So I was respecting a local custom. And the reverse applies...if someone from a tipping society visits a non-tipping society, then their money should stay in their pocket, no matter how natural or strong the urge is to tip, or how 'good' it makes the tipper feel.

As an interesting counterpoint, I took several taxi rides on the same trip to New Zealand earlier this year. On at least two occasions the fare was just over a round number. One was $20.40, the other just over $40. In each case the driver said without prompting, just make it 20 dollars (40 in the second case).

Oh, and no issue with the OP trying to avoid tipping situations. Wouldn't bother myself, but if that is what he/she wants to do, and can do it without offending any local customs good luck to him/her.

mcgahat Oct 31, 2009 10:42 pm


Originally Posted by tuapekastar (Post 12745402)
In Australia, tipping happens, and I do tip, modestly (max ~10%, but often just rounding up a little for restaurants and cabs), on occasions. There are also plenty of occasions I don't, just depends on circumstances. However, with the possible exception of very high-end restaurants, I cannot think of a single instance, where it is considered 'obligatory' or automatic or really really expected. If you were not happy with the service even in a high-end restaurant you'd be well within your rights not to tip.

It is clear that all the posters here have been brought up in societies where tipping varies from just about all service staff, through to occasional services, to no tipping at all.

I do find it odd that servers in the US can be 'paid' such a poxy hourly rate and be expected to make it up in tips. I think this really means the steak you see on the menu for $30 is really $35. But that's the way it is and I accept it, even if I don't understand how it came to be so.

Nothing deep and meaningful in this statement, but I think when visiting another place which has different habits and customs, it becomes someone to try and adapt to those customs as far as is possible and reasonable, as unpalatable as it may be.

I can remember tipping ladies who were cutting my hair in the US. Unheard of (AFAIK) here. But I did it as it was custom (or I certainly hope it was :o).

So I was respecting a local custom. And the reverse applies...if someone from a tipping society visits a non-tipping society, then their money should stay in their pocket, no matter how natural or strong the urge is to tip, or how 'good' it makes the tipper feel.

As an interesting counterpoint, I took several taxi rides on the same trip to New Zealand earlier this year. On at least two occasions the fare was just over a round number. One was $20.40, the other just over $40. In each case the driver said without prompting, just make it 20 dollars (40 in the second case).

Oh, and no issue with the OP trying to avoid tipping situations. Wouldn't bother myself, but if that is what he/she wants to do, and can do it without offending any local customs good luck to him/her.

Good post and a good attitude to have when traveling. ^

nicolas75 Nov 1, 2009 1:12 am

The culture of tipping in the US exists for two main reasons. A good one and a not so good one.

The good one: the predominance of customer oriented service. The client is king, and is at the better place to evaluate and recompense the quality of service.

The not so good one: the very low salaries of some basic service jobs (which is not the case in Europe, where minimum wages are decent and always include health care insurance). Tipping is the only way to get decent earnings.

Unfortunately, because of the second reason, it is now largely established in people minds (customers and service providers) that tip MUST be added, like a hidden 15-20% tax. Which means that even very basic service should be rewarded. In any other case, customers must be prepared to face anger and blame.

I can remember at the InterContinental The Barclays New York the bell boy who stored my luggage during two hours claiming loudly that I did not give him a tip (for having done his – basic job – without a smile). Didn’t I already pay for the service in the USD 400+ room rate??
I can remember a taxi driver in LA who polluted my trip from the hotel to the airport by claiming about tips and increasing oil prices. Should I pay for having been disturbed all along my trip in a dirty non AC cab?

Customers are going from a situation where they were supposed to be king in deciding who should get a special reward for the excellence of the service, at a situation where they are compelled to pay whatever the quality of the service. Something is turning wrong, don’t you think?

Mr H Nov 1, 2009 2:41 am


Originally Posted by Davidwnc (Post 12744525)
When did the UK abolish the minimum wage?!?!?!??

1993 - the Wages Councils were abolished - although they only ever covered some professions.

jbb Nov 1, 2009 3:43 am

I, like many others in this thread have plenty of experience in differing tipping cultures, having grown up in Canada, lived in the US and Japan and now residing in London for the past 4 years. My opinion on tipping fits with my general sentiment that there are always pros and cons to any differing systems.

On the one hand, I really love not having to tip in pubs in the UK, but on the other hand, I really appreciate the better service I feel I receive in the US. You get what you pay for I guess, and in the UK I appreciate the lack of tips (at least in pubs) and in the US, I appreciate the good service. Its all about focusing on whichever positive aspect you are enjoying at the time.

I'm guessing that at least part of the better service in the UK has to do with the tipping culture. For whatever reason, I am a guy who likes to drink alot of water with his meal and I very much notice and appreciate how in most restaurants in the States (including lower-end ones) one receives a big glass of cold ice water from the start that is consistently re-filled throughout the service. In London by contrast, you have to specifically ask for 'tap water' and what you'll get is tepid and in a tiny glass. They will very rarely if ever ask you if you want a refill. (For environmental and budget reasons, I'm not going to order the overpriced bottle water at restaurants)

That said, I feel that there is better customer service in the US at a wide variety of retail sectors, including those that have no tipping culture whatsoever, so I question to what extent the tipping actually is causally related to better service in the US. I think of most clothing or retail stores, travel companies or banks in the US where I have generally had far better service than in the UK.

Anyways, back to tipping... like most others here, I'll abide by local culture, but would ideally appreciate a system where everything is inclusive in the price and I still get excellent service. My only experience with that is in Japan.

I will highlight though that I am absolutely beginning to loathe the new norm in London where a 12.5% 'service charge' is added to restaurant bills. This is a horrible compromise between the traditional US and European systems. By automatically adding a service charge, you are getting the worst of both systems, whereby you have to pay close to the average tipping rate in the US, but end up getting London-standard service. Of course, you feel like a right jerk if you try to get it taken off.

Davidwnc Nov 1, 2009 4:43 am


Originally Posted by Mr H (Post 12746103)
1993 - the Wages Councils were abolished - although they only ever covered some professions.

The Wages Councils may have been abolished, but it is incorrect to say that the minimum wage is abolished in the UK…unless HMRC is wrong: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nmw/#b
The fact that there is a minimum wage in the UK was made clear about a month ago when it changed and we had to order new (required) posters explaining the National minimum wage. Assuming you are employed, don’t you have these at your place of employment?

Mr H Nov 1, 2009 4:49 am


Originally Posted by Davidwnc (Post 12746328)
The Wages Councils may have been abolished, but it is incorrect to say that the minimum wage is abolished in the UK…unless HMRC is wrong: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nmw/#b
The fact that there is a minimum wage in the UK was made clear about a month ago when it changed and we had to order new (required) posters explaining the National minimum wage. Assuming you are employed, don’t you have these at your place of employment?

A national minimum wage (a truly universal one) was one of the first Acts of the Blair Government in 1998. The absence of any minimum wage between 1993 and 1998 did not, as far as I could tell, lead to an increase in a tipping culture.

Davidwnc Nov 1, 2009 6:25 am


Originally Posted by Mr H (Post 12746340)
A national minimum wage (a truly universal one) was one of the first Acts of the Blair Government in 1998. The absence of any minimum wage between 1993 and 1998 did not, as far as I could tell, lead to an increase in a tipping culture.

Hmmm...so you think that the whole culture is going to be radically changed in the few years between the abolishing of the Wages Councils in 1993 and when Labour came to power? I don’t see national cultures generally changing that fast. Also, it’s not like the moment the Wages Councils were abolished every employer ran out and immediately dropped every waitress/waiter’s wages to a below living wage. I think if every employer had immediately dropped everyone’s wages upon the abolishment of the Wages Councils there would have been an outcry to have them back, but YMMV.

Mr H Nov 1, 2009 7:03 am

If you go back upthread, you'll see that I was rebutting the suggestion in post №94 that if a country abolished minimum wages, "a tipping culture would develop - and quickly".

Ichinensei Nov 1, 2009 7:13 am

I'm not sure why anyone here actually sound like they feel sorry for waiters. Sure they get minimum pay. I've heard ridiculous amount like $2 or $3 and hour. But if everyone tips them 15% or whatever amount, they could easily make way more than most of us here make in an hour...and I don't think a waiter deserves $20+/hour. there are more important jobs out there then someone bringing you a plate of food. Heck, I will voluntarily go into the kitchen myself and get the food if they allowed me.

no-backpacker Nov 1, 2009 8:37 am

Out of curiosity... Do you think the person working at Burger King/Mc. Donalds eg... earns a lot more than a waiter at a restaurant? Why don't you feel you have to tip at Mc. Donalds?

xxx.

1312AvEK Nov 1, 2009 9:54 am


Originally Posted by mshaikun (Post 12742039)
Travel a long way at great expense to only eat in fast food restaurants and at breakfast bars. Brilliant.

LOL
Fast food and breakfast bars is the american way!!! Don't miss out!!!

soitgoes Nov 1, 2009 10:33 am


Originally Posted by no-backpacker (Post 12747003)
Out of curiosity... Do you think the person working at Burger King/Mc. Donalds eg... earns a lot more than a waiter at a restaurant? Why don't you feel you have to tip at Mc. Donalds?

In base wages, yes. A fast food worker earns at least the minimum wage, while a waiter expecting tips earns much less than that in an hourly wage.

Mr H Nov 1, 2009 10:48 am

If people stopped tipping, employers would have to start paying decent wages or they wouldn't have any staff.


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