I think we've all heard this argument before, no?

;)

Several friends/relatives have worked in restaurants over the years in Canada and the U.S.

All of them have told me that the most common tip received was zero, and the average tip was about 5%. A small minority of people (perhaps 10 to 15% of people) tip in the 15% to 20% range.

At one time a tip was a bonus given to reward exceptional service. Over time this has mutated to the point where a dollar tip is expected for serving a three dollar coffee at Starbuck's.

Over the past year I have changed to a no-tipping policy. I serve people in my job and I don't receive a tip. If my waitress/cab driver/concierge or whoever else is not happy with their wage, they should negotiate with their boss or seek alternate employment. I am not here to subsidize the cheapskate compensation policies of some restaurant, nor to reward service personnel for merely doing an adequate job.

Mr. H, I then contend that you do not eat at many of the "best"or more "fashionable" restaurants in London very much these days or even much in the last decade. Furthermore yes, we all know what VAT is, however to calculate it based on added discretionary charges and then to calculate an automatic service charge based off of both and include it in the total is total chicanery not to mention would be considered illegal in manyother places. To add a tip line afterwards is just plainly ridiculous.

I know you're just going by what your friends/relatives have told you, but it's really hard to believe that most do not tip at atll, and that only 1 out of 6/10 tips in the usual range.

To me, the term 'tip' = a payment above and beyond the amount required and is given in recognition of service which has left a favourable impression.

Perhaps for those situations where wait staff require 'tips' to make a living and the concept of a tip means only that (the need to survive) we should call it what it is... staff wages.

The a tip can be left for service which is above and beyond. And to provide incentive.

So your bill should be:

• food
• tax
• wages
• tip

I'm afraid I think you're mistaken. London restaurants charge a menu price which includes tax. It is not calculated and added on afterwards. The same is true of drinks bought in a pub. The price you see is the price you pay, and you are not taxed for discretionary payments.

Some restaurants do add a fixed percentage of service charges on top of the menu price (which includes tax). It's not a habit I like, but one which seems to be the legacy of our friends from the USA who came over to Europe leaving little trails of tips behind them. Now everyone wants some.

The couvert charge is not something I have ever seen. I decided to have a look on the Internet at some menus to see whether I could see it in these "best or more fashionable" restaurants. Here's the menu from Gordon Ramsay's restaurant on Hospital Road - pretty fashionable. It was the first menu I tried - 12.5% gratuity but no couvert charge: http://www.gordonramsay.com/royalhos...enus/alacarte/. Here's the Oxo Tower Restaurant too - the same set up: http://www.harveynichols.com/files/p...nnersept09.pdf. Ditto The Square: http://www.squarerestaurant.org/.

So you are wrong on the way tax is calculated; you are wrong on the couvert charge. And most people have the wit not to leave a tip if they've already had one added on the bill.

So please, before you spread potentially damaging misinformation about our restaurants, try to get your facts right.

If so, then the "usual range" is clearly not usual. I must say, I don't find it hard to believe at all.

In my previous position, I sold value-added products, and I received a sales commission. I would most certainly not be inclined to seek the sale if I were not on a commission. I don't see how tipping is any different, nor how tipping is inherently wrong. Both points of view have merit, but holding to a no-tipping policy in a tipping culture is just as bad as doing the opposite (which most people here seem to say is a horrible evil, too).

It seems to me to be unreasonably idealistic to have this mindset. You're not going to change the practice of an entire country or culture by yourself. You're not even going to change it if you're part of a noticed and vocal group--you'd still be in a tiny minority. The fairer way to do this would be to push your representatives in government for legislation that prohibits service employees from being paid less than minimum wage and follow that up with a call to eliminate tipping (or at least take it back to how it used to be--a small bonus for exceptionally well-rendered service). Eliminating tipping without doing that helps no one, hurts someone, and makes you seem stingy (even though that's not your intent).

By and large Canadians (myself included) do tip at restaurants etc. I grew up with a standard 10-15%, more if service was very good. This has now creeped up to 15%. When I moved here, it was more like 20+% for restaurants, with essentially every food and service sector in on it. At what point is someone a cheapskate, and someone else is just excessive.

As long as tippers hope to obtain "special" services that are not available to other customers, the objective will be to out-tip others and the average level of tips will increase with no concomitant increase in service.

You're that guy from Goodfellows aren't you? :cool:

I fel completely uncomfortable at tipping and would like the OP go to places where tips are already absobed into the price. As for the argument about good service, then surely a place ought to offer good service if it wants repeat customers. And the way an employer can ensure good service is to treat its employees well.

When tipping I don't know whether I am supposed to act like a feudal land owner or an aristcrat or johnny foreigner handing how coins to the poor locals. I'd much rather pay the straight bill and then if service was particularly good write a letter to the employer to highlight the employee and publicise the establishment in places such as this forum.

If you think that OXXO or Gordon Ramsey are particularly "in" or "Fashionable" then again, this says more about you, then what is "in" and "happening" in London. And no I am not wrong, and if one were to look at the last mammoth thread, the last time this subject came up, you would find quite a few people aware of the London practices of which you are not accustomed. Where it comes from, or why it happens is immaterial, however nonetheless it is a reality. The only thing that I do concede is that yes, some restaurants do ht people up for 12.5% rather than 15%, however most still leave a tip line on the CC slips open.

Never EVER add a tip when a service charge has been added already.

I have given counter examples to your suggestion that people pay 100% of the marked price in London. You have yet to offer examples to support your contention. Perhaps that might be the way forward.

You suggest that credit card slips leave a tip line open. We don’t really have credit card slips very often – mostly it’s chip and pin these days. You get handed a computer thingy and type in your number. You have been to London, haven’t you?

But even in the days when there were credit card slips to sign, it was well known that credit card tips generally went straight into the proprietor’s pocket.