When they do that, I certainly don't tip on top of that. Only once was I with a group of people who refused to pay this sort of service charge: with justification, I suppose, since the service had been appallingly bad, but it was still embarrassing.

I agree, though, I find it a rather odd practice. I prefer the French approach, where the price that you get if you add up everything that you've ordered is the price that you're expected to pay, service included.

I don't know really but considering the demographics of these jobs and what their customers look like...

The below quote kind of reinforce that view.

They do that here in Canada. If you have 10 people at a table or something - they automatically charge you 15%. Which I think is an absolutely highway robbery - and I dont normally go back there

IIRC, certain jobs (e.g. bartender, waiter) are legally exempt from federal and state minimum wage requirements, with the understanding that much of the employee's income comes from tips. Foreigners don't usually know this and clearly your bartender/server isn't going to say something like "Hi, welcome to the US, by the way, I make less than minimum wage because I'm expected to make tips, so please don't forget! Whatd'ya want to drink?" That is why (as others have pointed out), restaurants and places with high volumes of tourist flow often add tips automatically. Why should their employees lose a significant source of their income just because the customer doesn't know the local custom? A friend of mine used to work in a restaurant that was popular with locals and tourists and they would fight not to serve the tourist tables, because whoever got the tourist tables would make about 50% less money that day (and we're not talking a lot in the first place). When a tip was automatically added, it was much smoother.

To all those who yell "oh we don't have a tipping culture in MY country"... if certain types of employment was exempted from minimum wage laws, I'm pretty sure that a tipping culture would develop - and quickly. So please ... try to be a bit more sympathetic and at least understand the situation before you judge it.

To the OP, I appreciate that you're trying to steer clear of places/situations where tipping is the norm. That's your right. But please don't stiff somebody where a tip is expected - that's just not nice.

In NYC, it is common for 6+ to get an 18% tacked on automatically.

It didn't in the UK when the minimum wage was abolished.

<snip> I do too.

But just so we're clear.... local independed businesses need to follow the same federal and state minimum wage guidelines as big multi-national chains. So the bartender in the local bar is getting the same base wage as the bartender in the Four Seasons. And they both rely on tips.

Do these specify the maximum wage too? Are hotels and bars really prohibited from paying their staff a living wage?

Bribery is paying to get something, I didn't expect to get this service or might not have even gotten it on a different night or different bouncer, so I'm not sure how you equate this with bribery ??, maybe I'm just just smarter :D

It is obvious from the post, Americans like to give, Europeans don't, yeah we are suckers. I'm sure many Americans would gladly tip a few bucks here or there, even if they weren't required to, someone already said what's a few dollars here or there to help someone out?

Actually last year, while researching a hotel I wanted to stay in Paris, many reviews had complained about their stuff being stolen when they failed to leave a tip for the house-keeping, I remember one in particular who said his stuff was put back where it was when he left a tip the next day...so what does this say about tipping, are you blaming Americans for this type of behavior?

To be clear, there is no prohibition on giving these people a living wage. I happen to know a few bartenders and they make a very decent base wage in addition to tips. The issue here is where the difference between their salary and the minimum wage is "made up" through tips.

When did the UK abolish the minimum wage?!?!?!??

Competitive visible largess - a great sport. People in tipping cultures love to be seen tipping. It re-enforces (or buys) social status.

Justified on the basis of "sparing a few bucks for the those guys who don't earn much", it puts objectors on the ethical back foot. But not for long - the big tippers are often proud to tell how they get some special extra service "in return".

So then we go around the loop again, and rates go up again.

Then it gets exported to poorer countries where tipping isn't normal. (Hey those guys are so poor, let's help them out.) Yep everyone's smiling - except of course the local customers who get ignored when the big tipper's in town.

How sad when a culture gets to the state where the only way you can get "good" service from people is by injecting cash at the receipt of that service.

who was commenting on my statement of:

CousinNick - you mave misunderstood my post.

I was making comment to a previous poster to me who had said, in essence, that Americans are expected to adapt to local customs, therefore foreigners should adapt to American customs.

I was agreeing in part, but was making the point that most non-American customs (for example in respect of tipping) are far less onerous than the American equivalents.

For example, it is very easy for an American to adapt to a 'please don't tip' culture than it is for a non-US person to have to adapt to a 'tip me at every possible moment' culture.

Having read subsequent comment in this thread about how some workers are taxed as if they earn a minimum tip, my response to that is that sholdn't they should still earn it?

If I am provided with bad or aggressive service to be forced to pay a tip I don't care whether you're taxed or not.

And that supports my second part of my statement that we should only be required to adapt to customs which are good. Tipping when service is bad just perpetuates a sense of entitlement regardless of service provided.

If the people stopped tipping just because they are forced to, then maybe service would improve to the point where we'd actually want to tip.

Happy to discuss further :)

regards

lme ff

I live in a tipping culture (Canada) although it's not quite as extreme as the USA... I will say that when I visit non-tipping cultures (primarily Europe) I'm appalled at the terrible service I seem to consistently experience. Anecdtoal to sure, and I don't eat in 5-star restaurants in Europe, but if I compare my experience in a typical pub restaurant in Seattle as compared to Portsmouth, the service will be consistently better in Seattle as the server tries to 'earn' her tip.

(Of course Egypt is another extreme - The culture of baksheesh is almost exhausting :))

Frankly I think it has nothing to do with tipping - other parts of Europe can be alot better despite the lack of tipping. This is also true in Taiwan. Service in the UK just seems unpredictable and I never know what to expect. I've had genuinely good service in the US but all too often the pushy plastic smiles just cheese me off. I feel the tipping thing buys the latter as the former comes naturally.