Abandoned by United in SFO
Mar 29, 2023, 7:18 am
#76
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, UA Gold, WN, Global Entry; +others wherever miles/points are found
Posts: 14,423
Except that it really could be, and in fact it fits what you describe quite well (except that the gate agent could have just said that). The rest of it though -- pulling away from the gate and then stopping to finish paperwork? That's absolutely in line with the idea of someone nearing the end of their duty day.
It's been pretty clear that United has built some fairly impressive tools to get insight into the calculus here, and made a calculated business decision not to hold the flight. At the end of the day, I don't think OP did anything wrong, unreasonable, or risky. Connections sometimes get missed - that's just flying for you.
Mar 29, 2023, 7:52 am
#77
Moderator: United Airlines
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Plat 1.997MM, Hyatt Discoverist, Marriott Plat/LT Gold, Hilton Silver, IHG Plat
Posts: 66,859
And in addition to the timeout theory that's been debated at length in this thread, who knows how many pax on SFO-EWR were making short connections in EWR that would be put at risk by holding the flight? It's not like a "last SFO-ACV of the day" situation where everyone and the frame is going to spend the night in ACV. ...
Mar 29, 2023, 8:14 am
#78
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,470
Or those in the aircraft needing to use the gate occupied by the SFO=EWR aircraft. A bit of a domino theory situation. Although those were both late night flights already. But that is part of the complexity ConnectionSaver needs to take in account. Some passenger's travel is going to be disrupted, how to minimize the impacts of irrops once they start.
Indeed. And one thing to learn here is don't let a missed connection become "a nightmare." Proactively rebook by phone, video kiosk, or app. Get a hotel and send UA the bill. Let go of what you can't change, and enjoy the new adventure.
Mar 29, 2023, 8:29 am
#79
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,185
I doubt it was the Captain making the announcement regarding connecting gates. We do have access to that information on our company iPads but it's in an app that few of us use or even know about. That was likely an F/A.
There is no guidance from the company to employees telling us to say that a flight will be held for a passenger or that they will make their connection. As I described above, the hold procedures only delay the gate door closing time by a certain amount of time. It is still up to the passenger to arrive at the gate within that new timeframe. Any employees who do tell a passenger that the flight will be held, or that they'll make their connection, are operating on a limited understanding of the process. Bottom line is that a held flight gives you more time, but it never guarantees you'll make the connection.
It's clear, from the information we had, that the Zone Controller is SOC was aware of the misconnect potential and made a conscious decision as to when to cutoff boarding for the flight. That Zone Controller had the benefit of the data from ConnectionSaver which is currently the best in the industry. There was some good reason why the flight was not held longer but there's no way for us to say what that reason was with the information we have. Similarly, we can't determine if the decision was a good one or not.
That, actually, is exactly what we do.
When the airplane is loaded, the priority is getting it pushed back. The agent and ramp lead will delay their close-out duties in order to get the airplane pushed first. The agent then finalizes the seat map (i.e. the passenger load) and the ramp lead finalizes the cargo compartment loading. When that's complete, the load planner (in Chicago) computes the weight and balance and sends the final weights to the airplane via ACARS. Once we receive the final weights, we finalize the takeoff performance and can complete the BEFORE TAKEOFF CHECKLIST. The final weights often arrive after the start of pushback leaving the final performance verification to be done during taxi. Occasionally, we'll even reach the runway without our final weights and will have to pull aside until they arrive. Can't takeoff without them.
The wheel-up time applies to the pilot's duty and flight time limits. The F/As duty limits are based on the time that the main cabin door is closed. In this case, if there was a time-out issue, it would likely have been the F/As as pilots don't fly a leg prior to a red-eye like the F/As often do. That is another possible explanation for why the cabin door had to be closed when it was. Re-open it and the F/As could time out.
There is no guidance from the company to employees telling us to say that a flight will be held for a passenger or that they will make their connection. As I described above, the hold procedures only delay the gate door closing time by a certain amount of time. It is still up to the passenger to arrive at the gate within that new timeframe. Any employees who do tell a passenger that the flight will be held, or that they'll make their connection, are operating on a limited understanding of the process. Bottom line is that a held flight gives you more time, but it never guarantees you'll make the connection.
It's clear, from the information we had, that the Zone Controller is SOC was aware of the misconnect potential and made a conscious decision as to when to cutoff boarding for the flight. That Zone Controller had the benefit of the data from ConnectionSaver which is currently the best in the industry. There was some good reason why the flight was not held longer but there's no way for us to say what that reason was with the information we have. Similarly, we can't determine if the decision was a good one or not.
pulling away from the gate and then stopping to finish paperwork?
When the airplane is loaded, the priority is getting it pushed back. The agent and ramp lead will delay their close-out duties in order to get the airplane pushed first. The agent then finalizes the seat map (i.e. the passenger load) and the ramp lead finalizes the cargo compartment loading. When that's complete, the load planner (in Chicago) computes the weight and balance and sends the final weights to the airplane via ACARS. Once we receive the final weights, we finalize the takeoff performance and can complete the BEFORE TAKEOFF CHECKLIST. The final weights often arrive after the start of pushback leaving the final performance verification to be done during taxi. Occasionally, we'll even reach the runway without our final weights and will have to pull aside until they arrive. Can't takeoff without them.
waiting to complete the calculations can then allow them to make their wheels-up time that would allow them to land prior to hitting their flight duty limits.
Mar 29, 2023, 8:41 am
#80
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,417
The wheel-up time applies to the pilot's duty and flight time limits. The F/As duty limits are based on the time that the main cabin door is closed. In this case, if there was a time-out issue, it would likely have been the F/As as pilots don't fly a leg prior to a red-eye like the F/As often do. That is another possible explanation for why the cabin door had to be closed when it was. Re-open it and the F/As could time out.
Mar 29, 2023, 9:05 am
#81
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Programs: AA
Posts: 14,741
You can't control when a flight will cancel or if a well planned connection, like the OP's, is missed but you can control how you react and adapt when it does happen. Hopefully the OP doesn't have a reason to test reactions again but if he ever does, I hope he has a better outcome.
Mar 29, 2023, 9:24 am
#82
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: KEWR
Programs: Marriott Platinum
Posts: 794
I doubt it was the Captain making the announcement regarding connecting gates. We do have access to that information on our company iPads but it's in an app that few of us use or even know about. That was likely an F/A.
There is no guidance from the company to employees telling us to say that a flight will be held for a passenger or that they will make their connection. As I described above, the hold procedures only delay the gate door closing time by a certain amount of time. It is still up to the passenger to arrive at the gate within that new timeframe. Any employees who do tell a passenger that the flight will be held, or that they'll make their connection, are operating on a limited understanding of the process. Bottom line is that a held flight gives you more time, but it never guarantees you'll make the connection.
It's clear, from the information we had, that the Zone Controller is SOC was aware of the misconnect potential and made a conscious decision as to when to cutoff boarding for the flight. That Zone Controller had the benefit of the data from ConnectionSaver which is currently the best in the industry. There was some good reason why the flight was not held longer but there's no way for us to say what that reason was with the information we have. Similarly, we can't determine if the decision was a good one or not.
That, actually, is exactly what we do.
When the airplane is loaded, the priority is getting it pushed back. The agent and ramp lead will delay their close-out duties in order to get the airplane pushed first. The agent then finalizes the seat map (i.e. the passenger load) and the ramp lead finalizes the cargo compartment loading. When that's complete, the load planner (in Chicago) computes the weight and balance and sends the final weights to the airplane via ACARS. Once we receive the final weights, we finalize the takeoff performance and can complete the BEFORE TAKEOFF CHECKLIST. The final weights often arrive after the start of pushback leaving the final performance verification to be done during taxi. Occasionally, we'll even reach the runway without our final weights and will have to pull aside until they arrive. Can't takeoff without them.
The wheel-up time applies to the pilot's duty and flight time limits. The F/As duty limits are based on the time that the main cabin door is closed. In this case, if there was a time-out issue, it would likely have been the F/As as pilots don't fly a leg prior to a red-eye like the F/As often do. That is another possible explanation for why the cabin door had to be closed when it was. Re-open it and the F/As could time out.
There is no guidance from the company to employees telling us to say that a flight will be held for a passenger or that they will make their connection. As I described above, the hold procedures only delay the gate door closing time by a certain amount of time. It is still up to the passenger to arrive at the gate within that new timeframe. Any employees who do tell a passenger that the flight will be held, or that they'll make their connection, are operating on a limited understanding of the process. Bottom line is that a held flight gives you more time, but it never guarantees you'll make the connection.
It's clear, from the information we had, that the Zone Controller is SOC was aware of the misconnect potential and made a conscious decision as to when to cutoff boarding for the flight. That Zone Controller had the benefit of the data from ConnectionSaver which is currently the best in the industry. There was some good reason why the flight was not held longer but there's no way for us to say what that reason was with the information we have. Similarly, we can't determine if the decision was a good one or not.
That, actually, is exactly what we do.
When the airplane is loaded, the priority is getting it pushed back. The agent and ramp lead will delay their close-out duties in order to get the airplane pushed first. The agent then finalizes the seat map (i.e. the passenger load) and the ramp lead finalizes the cargo compartment loading. When that's complete, the load planner (in Chicago) computes the weight and balance and sends the final weights to the airplane via ACARS. Once we receive the final weights, we finalize the takeoff performance and can complete the BEFORE TAKEOFF CHECKLIST. The final weights often arrive after the start of pushback leaving the final performance verification to be done during taxi. Occasionally, we'll even reach the runway without our final weights and will have to pull aside until they arrive. Can't takeoff without them.
The wheel-up time applies to the pilot's duty and flight time limits. The F/As duty limits are based on the time that the main cabin door is closed. In this case, if there was a time-out issue, it would likely have been the F/As as pilots don't fly a leg prior to a red-eye like the F/As often do. That is another possible explanation for why the cabin door had to be closed when it was. Re-open it and the F/As could time out.
this is 100% accurate information.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Mar 29, 2023 at 9:45 am Reason: removed unneeded comment
Mar 29, 2023, 9:44 am
#83
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 700
I doubt it was the Captain making the announcement regarding connecting gates. We do have access to that information on our company iPads but it's in an app that few of us use or even know about. That was likely an F/A.
That, actually, is exactly what we do.
When the airplane is loaded, the priority is getting it pushed back. The agent and ramp lead will delay their close-out duties in order to get the airplane pushed first. The agent then finalizes the seat map (i.e. the passenger load) and the ramp lead finalizes the cargo compartment loading. When that's complete, the load planner (in Chicago) computes the weight and balance and sends the final weights to the airplane via ACARS. Once we receive the final weights, we finalize the takeoff performance and can complete the BEFORE TAKEOFF CHECKLIST. The final weights often arrive after the start of pushback leaving the final performance verification to be done during taxi. Occasionally, we'll even reach the runway without our final weights and will have to pull aside until they arrive. Can't takeoff without them.
Unlike many of the posts here, this is 100% accurate information.
That, actually, is exactly what we do.
When the airplane is loaded, the priority is getting it pushed back. The agent and ramp lead will delay their close-out duties in order to get the airplane pushed first. The agent then finalizes the seat map (i.e. the passenger load) and the ramp lead finalizes the cargo compartment loading. When that's complete, the load planner (in Chicago) computes the weight and balance and sends the final weights to the airplane via ACARS. Once we receive the final weights, we finalize the takeoff performance and can complete the BEFORE TAKEOFF CHECKLIST. The final weights often arrive after the start of pushback leaving the final performance verification to be done during taxi. Occasionally, we'll even reach the runway without our final weights and will have to pull aside until they arrive. Can't takeoff without them.
Unlike many of the posts here, this is 100% accurate information.
OP back again: Fascinating/informative information above. I did not know that. It makes sense. Of course, that does not dissuade me from my view that over a dozen passengers late night connecting from KOA and running like banshees through the airport should have been able to make their connection in SFO five plus gates from where they deplaned.
In terms of Hawaii travel - our though is we/folks may be better off getting to HNL on a nonstop from the east coast and then worrying about the connection there. That is what we did on the outbound, and with two hours connection time in HNL made our KOA flight easily. But we opted for UA on the return via SFO. We thought breaking up the flight in CA made sense. Perhaps using HNL as the connection hub for East Coast travel to Hawaii and back is the way to go. . . .
Mar 29, 2023, 9:53 am
#84
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: UA MM
Posts: 1,581
Walking from the C gates to the B gates at O'Hare yesterday, there was an ad on the big screen as you go down to the underground passage advertising how many connections had been saved, with a little counter going up into the the 10s of thousands. So UA at least wants us to believe they still do so, even though they failed the OP
Mar 29, 2023, 10:18 am
#85
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 123
Trying to understand this discussion. The OP misconnected, was offered overnight accommodation, and then was provided transportation the next day. Why is this thread so lengthy? It goes both ways. I have misconnected (usually due to irrops) on UA, and have also had misconnects prevented by UA proactively re-routing me.
Mar 29, 2023, 10:49 am
#86
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton ♦ , Hyatt Carbonado, Wyndham ♦, Marriott PE, "Stinking Bum" elsewhere.
Posts: 5,000
I always strive, in all of my bookings, for the minimum total transit time. Thus, I often have 45 min or less domestic connections and ~1 hour international connections. In spite of this, I rarely misconnect, but I also avoid SFO for international (or HI) connections. I never even think to complain about a missed connection because that is a normal part of life when you fly more than 150K miles a year. I do complain about shoddy IRROPS handling though, and UA has really dropped the ball for me in that department lately.
Last edited by zombietooth; Mar 29, 2023 at 11:18 am
Mar 29, 2023, 4:25 pm
#88
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 923
To give you a counterpoint on "proactive" rebooking, I had this happen to me about 10 years ago on Frontier.
Was flying IAH to PDX for a friend's wedding (I was in the wedding party) with a stop in DEN. IAH to DEN was late and my connection was very tight. Ran through the terminal and just made my flight (boarding pass scanned in no problem).
A few days later, about an hour before the wedding ceremony, I go to check in for my return flight and it is GONE. Call Frontier, and they ask me how I go to PDX. Told them on their plane as reserved.
Apparently some agent was so sure I'd miss the flight that they rebooked me on a later one proactively. When I didn't show up for that flight because I made my original flight, my return was cancelled.
Proactive is great, but if its not managed right it can create additional headaches when someone actually makes that tight connection.
Was flying IAH to PDX for a friend's wedding (I was in the wedding party) with a stop in DEN. IAH to DEN was late and my connection was very tight. Ran through the terminal and just made my flight (boarding pass scanned in no problem).
A few days later, about an hour before the wedding ceremony, I go to check in for my return flight and it is GONE. Call Frontier, and they ask me how I go to PDX. Told them on their plane as reserved.
Apparently some agent was so sure I'd miss the flight that they rebooked me on a later one proactively. When I didn't show up for that flight because I made my original flight, my return was cancelled.
Proactive is great, but if its not managed right it can create additional headaches when someone actually makes that tight connection.
Also, echoing what others have said, never wait in line--call. Recently, had an issue where misconnect was a certainty, and while in the plane on the tarmac taxiing, was on the phone with premier line addressing. The agent wanted to put me on an OAL that would have made my transit time, IIRC, additional 8h and I convinced agent to put me on yet OAL resulting in only 4h additional transit time. AND, I had to tell agent we were about to take off so she needed to be a little quicker!! Eventually, I apologized to agent bc I had to hang up bc we were literally taking off, and she assured me that she would resolve all issues. When I landed, everything was in order as promised and more (without request, UA gave me generous meal vouchers).
Mar 30, 2023, 6:49 am
#89
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Saipan, MP 96950 USA (Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands = the CNMI)
Programs: UA Silver, Hilton Silver. Life: UA .57 MM, United & Admirals Clubs (spousal), Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,058
And I got a bit more per diem from my employer.
Adaptability is important for travel, on UA or OA (other airlines).
Mar 30, 2023, 9:15 am
#90
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston
Programs: UA Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,693
I appreciate jsloan and larryj writing up the long answers with everything I was going to say.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Mar 30, 2023 at 11:41 am Reason: No need for personal attacks to make a point