Jan 4, 2021, 1:37 am
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
This is an archive thread, the archive thread is https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-airlines-mileageplus/1960195-b737max-cleared-faa-resume-passenger-flights-when-will-ua-max-flights-resume.html
Thread Topic
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
United does not fly the 737 MAX 8 that has been involved in two recent crashes, but it does operate the 737 MAX 9.
How to tell if your flight is scheduled to be operated by the MAX 9:
View your reservation or flight status page, either on the web or on the app. United lists the entire aircraft type. Every flight that is scheduled to be on the 737 MAX will say "Boeing 737 MAX 9." If you see anything else -- for example, "Boeing 737-900," it is not scheduled to be a MAX at this time.
The same is true in search results and anywhere else on the United site.
For advanced users: UA uses the three letter IATA identifier 7M9 for the 737 MAX 9.
All 737 MAX aircraft worldwide (MAX 8, MAX 9, and MAX 10) are currently grounded.
Thread Topic
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
READ BEFORE POSTING
Once again many posters in this thread have forgotten the FT rules and resorted to "Personal attacks, insults, baiting and flaming " and other non-collegial, non-civil discourse. This is not allowed.
Posters appear to be talking at others, talking about others, not discussing the core issues. Repeating the same statements, saying the same thing LOUDER is not civil discourse. These problems are not with one poster, they are not just one point of view, ...
As useful as some discussion here has been, continuing rules violations will lead to suspensions and thread closure. Please think about that before posting.
The purpose of FT is to be an informative forum that, in this case, enables the UA flyer to enhance their travel experience. There are other forums for different types of discussions. This thread was had wide latitude but that latitude is being abused.
Bottom line, if you can not stay within the FT rules and the forum's topic areas, please do not post.
And before posting, ask if you are bringing new contributing information to the discussion -- not just repeating previous points, then please do not post.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
Once again many posters in this thread have forgotten the FT rules and resorted to "Personal attacks, insults, baiting and flaming " and other non-collegial, non-civil discourse. This is not allowed.
Posters appear to be talking at others, talking about others, not discussing the core issues. Repeating the same statements, saying the same thing LOUDER is not civil discourse. These problems are not with one poster, they are not just one point of view, ...
As useful as some discussion here has been, continuing rules violations will lead to suspensions and thread closure. Please think about that before posting.
The purpose of FT is to be an informative forum that, in this case, enables the UA flyer to enhance their travel experience. There are other forums for different types of discussions. This thread was had wide latitude but that latitude is being abused.
Bottom line, if you can not stay within the FT rules and the forum's topic areas, please do not post.
And before posting, ask if you are bringing new contributing information to the discussion -- not just repeating previous points, then please do not post.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
This thread has engendered some strongly felt opinions and a great tendency to wander into many peripherally related topics. By all normal FT moderation standards, this thread would have been permanently closed long ago ( and numerous members receiving disciplinary actions).
However, given the importance of the subject, the UA Moderators have tried to host this discussion but odd here as UA is not the top 1 or 2 or 3 for MAX among North America carriers. However, some have allowed their passion and non-UA related opinions to repeatedly disrupt this discussion.
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
Discussion of Boeing's culture or the impact on Boeing's future is not in scope. Nor is comments on restructuring the regulatory process. Neither is the impacts on COVID on the general air industry -- those are not UA specific and are better discussed elsewhere. And for discussion of UA's future, there is a separate thread.
Additionally repeated postings of essentially the same content should not happen nor unnecessarily inflammatory posts. And of course, the rest of FT posting rules apply including discuss the issue and not the posters.
The Moderator team feels there is a reason / need for this thread but it has been exhausting to have to repeated re-focus the discussion -- don't be the reason this thread is permanently closed ( and get yourself in disciplinary problems).
Stick to the relevant topic which is (repeating myself)
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
However, given the importance of the subject, the UA Moderators have tried to host this discussion but odd here as UA is not the top 1 or 2 or 3 for MAX among North America carriers. However, some have allowed their passion and non-UA related opinions to repeatedly disrupt this discussion.
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
Discussion of Boeing's culture or the impact on Boeing's future is not in scope. Nor is comments on restructuring the regulatory process. Neither is the impacts on COVID on the general air industry -- those are not UA specific and are better discussed elsewhere. And for discussion of UA's future, there is a separate thread.
Additionally repeated postings of essentially the same content should not happen nor unnecessarily inflammatory posts. And of course, the rest of FT posting rules apply including discuss the issue and not the posters.
The Moderator team feels there is a reason / need for this thread but it has been exhausting to have to repeated re-focus the discussion -- don't be the reason this thread is permanently closed ( and get yourself in disciplinary problems).
Stick to the relevant topic which is (repeating myself)
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
United does not fly the 737 MAX 8 that has been involved in two recent crashes, but it does operate the 737 MAX 9.
How to tell if your flight is scheduled to be operated by the MAX 9:
View your reservation or flight status page, either on the web or on the app. United lists the entire aircraft type. Every flight that is scheduled to be on the 737 MAX will say "Boeing 737 MAX 9." If you see anything else -- for example, "Boeing 737-900," it is not scheduled to be a MAX at this time.
The same is true in search results and anywhere else on the United site.
For advanced users: UA uses the three letter IATA identifier 7M9 for the 737 MAX 9.
All 737 MAX aircraft worldwide (MAX 8, MAX 9, and MAX 10) are currently grounded.
B737MAX Recertification - Archive
Mar 20, 2019, 12:55 pm
#631
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Posts: 812
For UA, as a publicly owned corporation this required by SEC. Must publicly release material financial impacts once known. To have not released the formal statement would have been an SEC violation.
Mar 20, 2019, 1:19 pm
#632
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tx
Programs: AA, UA, WN
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Runaway trim is not a failure; it is the symptom, or manifestation, of any one of several failures. On the 737 MAX, the trim can be moved by MCAS, Speed Trim System, Electric trim switches, the autopilot, or by manually turning the wheel. Only MCAS is unique to the MAX. A failure in any one of those systems could cause a trim runaway.
Every airplane that has a powered pitch-trim system has a runaway trim (or stabilizer) procedure. That includes every airliner build since the beginning of the jet age. I have learned and practiced the runaway trim/stabilizer procedure in every transport jet, and a few general aviation airplanes, that I've flown including the CRJ, DC8, DC9, B757, B767, and B737. This isn't something obscure that is hidden in the fine print of a thousand-page manual.
Every airplane that has a powered pitch-trim system has a runaway trim (or stabilizer) procedure. That includes every airliner build since the beginning of the jet age. I have learned and practiced the runaway trim/stabilizer procedure in every transport jet, and a few general aviation airplanes, that I've flown including the CRJ, DC8, DC9, B757, B767, and B737. This isn't something obscure that is hidden in the fine print of a thousand-page manual.
Would a pilot be able to recognize runaway trim quickly enough during critical phases of flight considering we have two examples of low altitude crashes? This is the subjective question.
I never even alluded to obscure documentation about treating the symptom...unsure where the assumption came from....asking if runaway trim would be on a pilot's mind as the cause for unresponsive control inputs before other more catastrophic scenarios....essentially how rare is a runaway trim situation?
Mar 20, 2019, 2:12 pm
#633
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For UA, as a publicly owned corporation this required by SEC. Must publicly release material financial impacts once known. To have not released the formal statement would have been an SEC violation.
Mar 20, 2019, 2:14 pm
#634
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Posts: 6,526
Would a pilot be able to recognize runaway trim quickly enough during critical phases of flight considering we have two examples of low altitude crashes? This is the subjective question.
I never even alluded to obscure documentation about treating the symptom...unsure where the assumption came from....asking if runaway trim would be on a pilot's mind as the cause for unresponsive control inputs before other more catastrophic scenarios....essentially how rare is a runaway trim situation?
As the captain fought to climb, the computer continued to push the nose down. “They didn’t seem to know the trim was moving down,” the third source said. “They thought only about airspeed and altitude. That was the only thing they talked about.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-plane-crashed
This, and other things I have seen from pilots, suggests that not knowing how the system worked, makes it hard to understand that its an automatic trim input that is the issue...
Mar 20, 2019, 2:32 pm
#635
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Well, some reporting suggesting as to Lion Air, they had no clue it was a trim issue. From the Guardian UK:
As the captain fought to climb, the computer continued to push the nose down. “They didn’t seem to know the trim was moving down,” the third source said. “They thought only about airspeed and altitude. That was the only thing they talked about.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-plane-crashed
This, and other things I have seen from pilots, suggests that not knowing how the system worked, makes it hard to understand that its an automatic trim input that is the issue...
As the captain fought to climb, the computer continued to push the nose down. “They didn’t seem to know the trim was moving down,” the third source said. “They thought only about airspeed and altitude. That was the only thing they talked about.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-plane-crashed
This, and other things I have seen from pilots, suggests that not knowing how the system worked, makes it hard to understand that its an automatic trim input that is the issue...
Mar 20, 2019, 2:36 pm
#636
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,752
I not a SECfiling expert but I suspect the others would be also submitting such statements. There is probably some acceptable time window. This is what I would expect as an investor of any public corproration and not sure how this can be views in a negative light in any manner.
Far as stock valuation is concerned, during the long-term, given what we know, this MAX thing is a non-event, like the Dau affair. Short term sell off, some MSM noise, but no one in the Capital markets will care, unless there's something much more substantial than what's currently known.
Mar 20, 2019, 2:47 pm
#637
Join Date: Feb 2008
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What I think is going to require a lot of investigation is why the Ethiopian Pilot did not know the issue was a MCAS/Trim issue? Was the new (post-Lion Air crash) Boeing training too vague?
Also note that we have heard absolutely noting so far, and we are a long way out at this point, to suggest that the plane was on fire or was dropping stuff as it crashed (suggesting a bomb). Everyone should remember this next time there are eyewitnesses to a crash.....
Mar 20, 2019, 3:22 pm
#638
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Witness statements from crash scenes are notoriously unreliable. The shock and stress of observing such an unusual event, often combined with the person's minimal aeronautical knowledge, can result in illogical and even nonsensical recollections.
Mar 20, 2019, 4:09 pm
#639
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: HNL
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Regardless, the Ethiopian Co-Pilot having only 200 hours should be really concerning - and maybe the Captain didn't catch it because he was busy trying to fly the plane - or who knows, panicked.
Mar 20, 2019, 4:10 pm
#640
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,881
I'm not going to repeat my thesis as to the system design, we know that's a major problem for Boeing. But I maintain that every type-rated 737 pilot even before JT610 was trained in a procedure which corrects auto stabilizer trim problems, which would include unwanted MCAS inputs. There are problems with execution, too.
Btw, good stuff in this thread ^
Mar 20, 2019, 5:37 pm
#641
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FBI is joining the MAX criminal investigation. Things just got a lot more interesting. Can employees of Boeing be prosecuted criminally for this ?
Last edited by n198ua; Mar 20, 2019 at 6:57 pm
Mar 20, 2019, 6:46 pm
#642
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: ATL
Programs: Delta PlM, 1M
Posts: 6,365
FBI is joining the MAX criminal investigation. Things just got a lot more interesting. Can employees Boeing be prosecuted criminally for this ?
Often the real world regulatory process is much more a grey world than people think.
EDIT: One area where some of the Asian countries have an advantage. In China they would just hang somebody to show they are taking action (they did this with a drug mfg issue of the same nature). In Japan, the CEO would fall on his sword, maybe litterally.
EDIT2: I did not intend my first edit to be any sort of assertion that there should be criminal charges against Boeing. Only that here we will have a circus show however it plays out.
Last edited by exwannabe; Mar 20, 2019 at 7:11 pm
Mar 20, 2019, 7:04 pm
#643
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,752
FBI is joining the MAX criminal investigation. Things just got a lot more interesting. Can employees of Boeing be prosecuted criminally for this ?
Mar 20, 2019, 9:45 pm
#644
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,866
Interesting news article about the 737’s 50 year old design haunting Boeing
https://www.latimes.com/local/califo...315-story.html
https://www.latimes.com/local/califo...315-story.html
Mar 20, 2019, 10:09 pm
#645
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,875
Generally, a material change has to filed via an 8K disclosure within 4 or 5 days, but there are many cases where Companies ignore, even flaunt, SEC authority on "timely" disclosures. See TSLA & Musk, as an example.
Far as stock valuation is concerned, during the long-term, given what we know, this MAX thing is a non-event, like the Dau affair. Short term sell off, some MSM noise, but no one in the Capital markets will care, unless there's something much more substantial than what's currently known.
Far as stock valuation is concerned, during the long-term, given what we know, this MAX thing is a non-event, like the Dau affair. Short term sell off, some MSM noise, but no one in the Capital markets will care, unless there's something much more substantial than what's currently known.
Nobody can predict the stock market. What do you mean a non-event? Obviously the stock has dropped. That doesn't make it a non-event. Just because stocks change, go up and down, and if you look over the span of years it has a general trend, does not mean those events didn't happen.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Mar 21, 2019 at 7:04 am Reason: Unneeded personal comment removed