Were The Early 80's Really That Much Better On UA Than Now?
Dec 6, 2019, 7:43 am
#241
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM
Posts: 6,356
Departing & arriving; there's ALWAYS lines, and people are buying like crazy. Although why, I do not know.
One of the better things United did in the last few years was abandon Duty Free sales on board! ^
Dec 6, 2019, 7:50 am
#242
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
And I disagree with a lot of this:
I agree, in an unregulated era, prices should track with demand but my recollection is that fare prices during the regulated era generally did track with distance.
Not in my experience going back to the 1970s. Of course, I was a bit ... smaller ... in the 1970s and 1980s but not shorter. Adjustable headrests make the seat more comfortable (if you're tall enough for them to matter -- a lot of people aren't) but they don't increase the pitch. There was absolutely more knee room or ability to get to my carry-on under the seat in front of me in the 1980s and this was flying coach on United, Northwest, TWA, American, and Delta (and comparing directly to being in Economy Plus today). Which major American carrier from the 1980s was I missing? The overall situation today WRT seat pitch is MUCH worse; I can't imagine under any circumstances how you could think it's a great improvement from 30-40 years ago.
We didn't "need" good food at airports but the options today are certainly more varied than they were 30+ years ago and there are often non-mediocre options. With some exceptions, airport food has always been expensive compared to eating before you get to the airport. Whether it's worth paying for is up to the consumer -- I will generally eat before I go or wait until I arrive and get out of the airport.
I hate them. I'm not a shopper and they're taking up space that could have more seating or make the existing seating more comfortable or put in additional recharge stations. Heck, I'd rather have more historical or local artwork displays. The absolute worst change I've seen in overseas travel has been being funneled through "Duty Free" shopping as I enter or exit the country. I've got all I need to do (without spending additional money) on my ereader, iPad, laptop, etc. I rarely see anyone buying anything except at the convenience store (or Duty Free on those international trips) so I've always been a bit befuddled at how the economics of most of those airport stores work. They're paying huge airport leasing fees to get how many sales per day? Just how does that work?
I agree, in an unregulated era, prices should track with demand but my recollection is that fare prices during the regulated era generally did track with distance.
Not in my experience going back to the 1970s. Of course, I was a bit ... smaller ... in the 1970s and 1980s but not shorter. Adjustable headrests make the seat more comfortable (if you're tall enough for them to matter -- a lot of people aren't) but they don't increase the pitch. There was absolutely more knee room or ability to get to my carry-on under the seat in front of me in the 1980s and this was flying coach on United, Northwest, TWA, American, and Delta (and comparing directly to being in Economy Plus today). Which major American carrier from the 1980s was I missing? The overall situation today WRT seat pitch is MUCH worse; I can't imagine under any circumstances how you could think it's a great improvement from 30-40 years ago.
We didn't "need" good food at airports but the options today are certainly more varied than they were 30+ years ago and there are often non-mediocre options. With some exceptions, airport food has always been expensive compared to eating before you get to the airport. Whether it's worth paying for is up to the consumer -- I will generally eat before I go or wait until I arrive and get out of the airport.
I hate them. I'm not a shopper and they're taking up space that could have more seating or make the existing seating more comfortable or put in additional recharge stations. Heck, I'd rather have more historical or local artwork displays. The absolute worst change I've seen in overseas travel has been being funneled through "Duty Free" shopping as I enter or exit the country. I've got all I need to do (without spending additional money) on my ereader, iPad, laptop, etc. I rarely see anyone buying anything except at the convenience store (or Duty Free on those international trips) so I've always been a bit befuddled at how the economics of most of those airport stores work. They're paying huge airport leasing fees to get how many sales per day? Just how does that work?
But you are just ignoring economy plus, which is a massive positive development. Why? It doesn't count because it costs a little extra? So what? It's worth paying for.
2. Your airport food story ignores connections. Sometimes you have to eat at the airport, again, it is worth paying for and who cares if it costs more than it does on the outside? That's not some sort of outrage.
3. I see people buying stuff in those duty free shops, which are a massive convenience for some travelers. Just walk through them.
Dec 6, 2019, 7:52 am
#243
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,413
Or Osaka Kansai. Who needs to sell food when you can have nineteen different stores offering designer handbags? 
I find it distasteful to be led through Duty Free on my way to/from immigration. I don't mind the presence of the stores, but I don't like being marched through them.
I find it distasteful to be led through Duty Free on my way to/from immigration. I don't mind the presence of the stores, but I don't like being marched through them.
Dec 6, 2019, 8:02 am
#244
Join Date: Jun 2014
Programs: UA MM
Posts: 4,126
According to this story, seat pitch really is less than decades ago:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...m/amp/16105491
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...m/amp/16105491
Dec 6, 2019, 8:08 am
#245
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: USA
Programs: UA Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 1,195
1. I was tall as a kid. Seat pitch was already down to 32 or 31 in the 1980's.
But you are just ignoring economy plus, which is a massive positive development. Why? It doesn't count because it costs a little extra? So what? It's worth paying for.
2. Your airport food story ignores connections. Sometimes you have to eat at the airport, again, it is worth paying for and who cares if it costs more than it does on the outside? That's not some sort of outrage.
3. I see people buying stuff in those duty free shops, which are a massive convenience for some travelers. Just walk through them.
But you are just ignoring economy plus, which is a massive positive development. Why? It doesn't count because it costs a little extra? So what? It's worth paying for.
2. Your airport food story ignores connections. Sometimes you have to eat at the airport, again, it is worth paying for and who cares if it costs more than it does on the outside? That's not some sort of outrage.
3. I see people buying stuff in those duty free shops, which are a massive convenience for some travelers. Just walk through them.
2. My airport food story does NOT ignore connections because what we used to be fed was enough that I didn't feel a need to eat during my short layovers 30-40 years ago. Of course, airline food has never been anything to write home about (except up front) but it met the need. Sometimes more than the need.
3. I said those duty free shops were one of the two exceptions where I see people buying things. I still hate the way they funnel passengers through them because they are massive points of congestion as I'm trying to get to my gate (or the lounge if I have time). I have no problems with the ones that are on the side as you transit but many international airports now funnel you through so you can't avoid the window shopping congestion as people just stop in the middle of throughways to decide which side they want to shop in or hold an extended conversation with their fellow travelers. At least I understand the temptations at the Duty Free ... You say just go to a lounge if you don't want to shop, I would respond just go shopping when you're at home except that these stores apparently are making enough sales to somehow make it financially worthwhile for them. I don't understand it in most of the airports I've been in but if the numbers work for them then more power to them. I just disagree with your assessment that they make traveling now so much better than 30-40 years ago.
Dec 6, 2019, 8:16 am
#246
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Join Date: May 2006
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By "food on the ground" do you mean lounge food or grocery store or fast food? Because grocery store items in the US hasn't changed much except for some fads.
Dec 6, 2019, 8:24 am
#247
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
According to this story, seat pitch really is less than decades ago:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...m/amp/16105491
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...m/amp/16105491
Dec 6, 2019, 8:27 am
#248
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, UA Gold, WN, Global Entry; +others wherever miles/points are found
Posts: 14,419
Restaurants, primarily, and I would imagine some of the food cooked at home. The availability of a diverse and high-quality set of ethnic food has drastically increased in the last 50 years. "Fast food" now means Chipotle or Panera or a huge host of other competitors in the "fast casual" space instead of a McDonalds equivalent or nothing. You can get a decent beer in almost any bar, instead of Budweiser only. Our conception of dinner has evolved beyond tasteless steamed vegetables, meatloaf, and potatoes. So I think that plane food has a heck of a lot more to compete with today than it did in 1975. Even just in an airport terminal, the dining options are worlds better today then as recently as 1995.
Dec 6, 2019, 8:29 am
#249
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
1. I'm not ignoring Economy Plus, I'm doing a direct comparison of coach 30-40 years ago to Economy Plus today. I agree the extra legroom is worth paying for and I did so for my mother. I understand what the numbers on record say but I absolutely did NOT have my knees hitting the seat in front of me when flying in coach 30-40 years ago. I had room to open up an 11-inch laptop, have the screen out to a comfortable reading position and didn't have my elbows crunched up against my sides in order to use the keyboard.
2. My airport food story does NOT ignore connections because what we used to be fed was enough that I didn't feel a need to eat during my short layovers 30-40 years ago. Of course, airline food has never been anything to write home about (except up front) but it met the need. Sometimes more than the need.
3. I said those duty free shops were one of the two exceptions where I see people buying things. I still hate the way they funnel passengers through them because they are massive points of congestion as I'm trying to get to my gate (or the lounge if I have time). I have no problems with the ones that are on the side as you transit but many international airports now funnel you through so you can't avoid the window shopping congestion as people just stop in the middle of throughways to decide which side they want to shop in or hold an extended conversation with their fellow travelers. At least I understand the temptations at the Duty Free ... You say just go to a lounge if you don't want to shop, I would respond just go shopping when you're at home except that these stores apparently are making enough sales to somehow make it financially worthwhile for them. I don't understand it in most of the airports I've been in but if the numbers work for them then more power to them. I just disagree with your assessment that they make traveling now so much better than 30-40 years ago.
2. My airport food story does NOT ignore connections because what we used to be fed was enough that I didn't feel a need to eat during my short layovers 30-40 years ago. Of course, airline food has never been anything to write home about (except up front) but it met the need. Sometimes more than the need.
3. I said those duty free shops were one of the two exceptions where I see people buying things. I still hate the way they funnel passengers through them because they are massive points of congestion as I'm trying to get to my gate (or the lounge if I have time). I have no problems with the ones that are on the side as you transit but many international airports now funnel you through so you can't avoid the window shopping congestion as people just stop in the middle of throughways to decide which side they want to shop in or hold an extended conversation with their fellow travelers. At least I understand the temptations at the Duty Free ... You say just go to a lounge if you don't want to shop, I would respond just go shopping when you're at home except that these stores apparently are making enough sales to somehow make it financially worthwhile for them. I don't understand it in most of the airports I've been in but if the numbers work for them then more power to them. I just disagree with your assessment that they make traveling now so much better than 30-40 years ago.
2. So you prefer a free bad meal (and they were always bad) on a plane to a much better meal at a terminal that costs 15 bucks? I think that's just wrong.
Further there were always connections out of mealtimes. You flew EWR-ORD at 3pm, and then ORD-SLC at 7pm, you didn't get a meal. There needed to be good food at ORD.
Dec 6, 2019, 9:33 am
#250
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: HNL
Programs: UA GS4MM, MR LT Plat, Hilton Gold
Posts: 6,447
Interesting, I'm the opposite. I'm not a shopper - always take time to stroll around the shops at Heathrow to see what they have, I don't buy anything but find it interesting to walk around......
Dec 6, 2019, 9:57 am
#251
Join Date: Jun 2014
Programs: UA MM
Posts: 4,126
“Pitch—or the distance in inches from a given point on one seat to the same point on the seat in the next row—has indeed changed dramatically in economy class at the nation's four largest carriers over the last 30 years.
As indicated, all of the Big Three—American, Delta and United—now offer at least some aircraft with a seat pitch of only 30 inches in economy. In years past, 31 or 32 inches were the absolute minimums. What's more, the roomiest pitch offered by the Big Three and Southwest (31-33 inches) are now tighter than they were at all four carriers in recent years, by anywhere from 2 to 5 inches.”
Yes, it goes on to mention regionals as a contributing factor but now, regionals have no less seat pitch than mainlines.
Dec 6, 2019, 10:15 am
#252
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
It sure does say that:
“Pitch—or the distance in inches from a given point on one seat to the same point on the seat in the next row—has indeed changed dramatically in economy class at the nation's four largest carriers over the last 30 years.
As indicated, all of the Big Three—American, Delta and United—now offer at least some aircraft with a seat pitch of only 30 inches in economy. In years past, 31 or 32 inches were the absolute minimums. What's more, the roomiest pitch offered by the Big Three and Southwest (31-33 inches) are now tighter than they were at all four carriers in recent years, by anywhere from 2 to 5 inches.”
Yes, it goes on to mention regionals as a contributing factor but now, regionals have no less seat pitch than mainlines.
But most seat pitch is at 31. You know what it was when I started flying? 31-32. The sentences you are referring to are poorly (and I would argue dishonestly) worded, but what they are saying is this- there used to be some errant 33's and 34's around, and now there aren't. Which is half-true- there are, but you have to pay for them (economy plus). And there used to be no 30's, but now there are a few.
But the only thing that the article says is bringing the average down is the proliferation of RJ's, many of which have terrible pitch. Which is also true.
But bottom line, a traveler who purchases Economy Plus is getting better seat pitch then I got on almost all of my Y flights in the 1980's and 1990's. Seriously, the only times I got more pitch in economy was when I lucked into an exit row. Rest of the time, modern E+ is better. It costs money, but it's better.
And honestly, nobody here should be opposed to spending that money. First of all, if you fly enough you get it for free. But even if you don't- it's not like any of us are flying Spirit with its 28 inch pitch. We all think it's worth extra money to fly United, right? So it's worth a little on top of that to fly economy plus, and a little on top of that to get a much better meal at an airline terminal. Having to spend additional money is not some sort of outrage, especially since air travel is cheap by historical standards.
Dec 6, 2019, 10:23 am
#253
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC: UA 1K, DL Platinum, AAirpass, Avis PC
Posts: 4,599
According to this story, seat pitch really is less than decades ago:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...m/amp/16105491
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...m/amp/16105491
https://www.nytimes.com/1981/05/24/t...-reshaped.html
32 inch pitch was already becoming standard - using...what were then considered slim line seats with the same airline argument that the slimmer seat = same legroom in less space. If there was a Flyertalk back then the threads would be remarkably similar in theme to today!
----
''What the airlines are doing,'' says Arthur St. John, general sales manager of UOP Inc's aerospace products division, ''is shortening up the pitch.'' He said that ''with the more plush-looking seats'' in coach class on domestic flights, airlines have maintained a pitch of between 34 and 35 inches. ''What they're doing with the new, thin-profile seats is they're getting them in at 32 inches,'' he said.
A McDonnell Douglas executive notes that ''with the newer, less bulky seats, you might get as much legroom with 32-inch pitch as you would with 34-inch pitch.''
UOP, which says it has 32 percent of the world's airline-seat market, recently introduced a new seat, the Aero-Lite-I. The company says the new model provides underseat clearance -that is, footroom - of 11.375 inches compared with the existing industry average of 10.4 to 11 inches, as well as more room for the knees and shins and more space at shoulder and head level.
Pan American has bought the seat for its new Boeing 727-200's and Trans World Airlines has purchased it to to replace the existing seats in its Lockheed L-1011 jumbo jets and Boeing 727-100's."
UOP, which says it has 32 percent of the world's airline-seat market, recently introduced a new seat, the Aero-Lite-I. The company says the new model provides underseat clearance -that is, footroom - of 11.375 inches compared with the existing industry average of 10.4 to 11 inches, as well as more room for the knees and shins and more space at shoulder and head level.
Pan American has bought the seat for its new Boeing 727-200's and Trans World Airlines has purchased it to to replace the existing seats in its Lockheed L-1011 jumbo jets and Boeing 727-100's."
Dec 6, 2019, 10:26 am
#254
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
Here's a NY Times article from early 1981
https://www.nytimes.com/1981/05/24/t...-reshaped.html
32 inch pitch was already becoming standard - using...what were then considered slim line seats with the same airline argument that the slimmer seat = same legroom in less space. If there was a Flyertalk back then the threads would be remarkably similar in theme to today!
----
''What the airlines are doing,'' says Arthur St. John, general sales manager of UOP Inc's aerospace products division, ''is shortening up the pitch.'' He said that ''with the more plush-looking seats'' in coach class on domestic flights, airlines have maintained a pitch of between 34 and 35 inches. ''What they're doing with the new, thin-profile seats is they're getting them in at 32 inches,'' he said.
A McDonnell Douglas executive notes that ''with the newer, less bulky seats, you might get as much legroom with 32-inch pitch as you would with 34-inch pitch.''
UOP, which says it has 32 percent of the world's airline-seat market, recently introduced a new seat, the Aero-Lite-I. The company says the new model provides underseat clearance -that is, footroom - of 11.375 inches compared with the existing industry average of 10.4 to 11 inches, as well as more room for the knees and shins and more space at shoulder and head level.
Pan American has bought the seat for its new Boeing 727-200's and Trans World Airlines has purchased it to to replace the existing seats in its Lockheed L-1011 jumbo jets and Boeing 727-100's."
https://www.nytimes.com/1981/05/24/t...-reshaped.html
32 inch pitch was already becoming standard - using...what were then considered slim line seats with the same airline argument that the slimmer seat = same legroom in less space. If there was a Flyertalk back then the threads would be remarkably similar in theme to today!
----
''What the airlines are doing,'' says Arthur St. John, general sales manager of UOP Inc's aerospace products division, ''is shortening up the pitch.'' He said that ''with the more plush-looking seats'' in coach class on domestic flights, airlines have maintained a pitch of between 34 and 35 inches. ''What they're doing with the new, thin-profile seats is they're getting them in at 32 inches,'' he said.
UOP, which says it has 32 percent of the world's airline-seat market, recently introduced a new seat, the Aero-Lite-I. The company says the new model provides underseat clearance -that is, footroom - of 11.375 inches compared with the existing industry average of 10.4 to 11 inches, as well as more room for the knees and shins and more space at shoulder and head level.
Pan American has bought the seat for its new Boeing 727-200's and Trans World Airlines has purchased it to to replace the existing seats in its Lockheed L-1011 jumbo jets and Boeing 727-100's."
Dec 6, 2019, 10:34 am
#255
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC: UA 1K, DL Platinum, AAirpass, Avis PC
Posts: 4,599
I would bet that by, say, 1984, there was a very similarly low percentage of US legacy carrier airline seats that were more than 33 inch pitch as there are now. Maybe even lower in 1984. The only difference is now you have to pay for it (or have status to obtain it) as Economy Plus/Main Cabin Extra/Comfort Plus.
Interesting UA tidbit. There's a small live stage theater near SFO that in the 80s and 90s had old UA seats from the 70s as audience seating. Probably when UA installed the 80s version of slimline on its fleet. Remember going to a school field trip there and being surprised!