[Unconfirmed] UA Preparing to Sell E+ at Booking as Separate Cabin (like DL C+)
Nov 8, 2019, 6:28 pm
#76
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,422
It doesn't, yet. I think that findark started this thread because the use of B as a pseudo-E+ fare code is similar to DL. When DL made C+ a separate fare class, they also changed the way that they give it to Medallion members. Instead of selecting a C+ seat at booking, DL Medallion members have to be upgraded into C+. DL Platinum and Diamond members can get upgraded "shortly after ticketing" and seem to have last-seat (or near-last-seat) C+ availability. Gold members may be upgraded starting at T-72, and Silver members may be upgraded starting at T-24. And most DL Gold and Silver members can tell you how they lost their preferred C- aisle seat in favor of a C+ middle that they didn't really want.
If UA were to copy that system, it would be a pretty substantial downgrade for Silver and Gold members.
But, again, so far they're not, and they don't have as much of a need to do so anyway: UA has many more E+ seats than DL has C+ seats, so they don't run into the same problem that DL did -- high-level premier members getting stuck in C-.
If UA were to copy that system, it would be a pretty substantial downgrade for Silver and Gold members.
But, again, so far they're not, and they don't have as much of a need to do so anyway: UA has many more E+ seats than DL has C+ seats, so they don't run into the same problem that DL did -- high-level premier members getting stuck in C-.
Nov 8, 2019, 6:31 pm
#77
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,359
It doesn't, yet. I think that findark started this thread because the use of B as a pseudo-E+ fare code is similar to DL. When DL made C+ a separate fare class, they also changed the way that they give it to Medallion members. Instead of selecting a C+ seat at booking, DL Medallion members have to be upgraded into C+. DL Platinum and Diamond members can get upgraded "shortly after ticketing" and seem to have last-seat (or near-last-seat) C+ availability. Gold members may be upgraded starting at T-72, and Silver members may be upgraded starting at T-24. And most DL Gold and Silver members can tell you how they lost their preferred C- aisle seat in favor of a C+ middle that they didn't really want.
If UA were to copy that system, it would be a pretty substantial downgrade for Silver and Gold members.
But, again, so far they're not, and they don't have as much of a need to do so anyway: UA has many more E+ seats than DL has C+ seats, so they don't run into the same problem that DL did -- high-level premier members getting stuck in C-.
If UA were to copy that system, it would be a pretty substantial downgrade for Silver and Gold members.
But, again, so far they're not, and they don't have as much of a need to do so anyway: UA has many more E+ seats than DL has C+ seats, so they don't run into the same problem that DL did -- high-level premier members getting stuck in C-.
Nov 8, 2019, 6:39 pm
#78
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2017
Programs: AS 75K, DL Silver, UA Platinum, Hilton Gold, Hyatt Discoverist, Marriott Platinum + LT Gold
Posts: 10,519
If UA were to have E+ as a separate cabin like DL, and confirm certain elites E+ shortly after booking, that's basically the same as now.
Nov 8, 2019, 6:43 pm
#79
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: UA MM
Posts: 1,581
Nov 8, 2019, 6:44 pm
#80
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,359
Not entirely. For one thing when I make the booking I can see the seat map and select the specific seat I want. Also, this benefit is provided for Golds and above along with their companion. An upgrade system turns an entitlement into a benefit
Nov 8, 2019, 6:49 pm
#81
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, UA Gold, WN, Global Entry; +others wherever miles/points are found
Posts: 14,425
Thanks for reaching out ^
Confirms the filings are indeed a deliberate attempt to offer E+ as a fare, and the obvious fact that this is a limited rollout/test. Since there is no "Economy Plus" column yet on searches in those markets, I'm guessing the web design team is late with the front-end parts (too busy "improving" the seatmaps I guess
).
Yes, I don't at all mean to imply that E+ at booking as going away for any elites - there just seems to be a lot of doom and gloom these days 
That being said, I think a few things are extremely likely.
(1) This "test" is going to be successful and they will slowly roll out E+ as some kind of branded fare systemwide. Exec comments on earnings calls seem to make it clear they want to head in this direction.. perhaps market research and/or Delta-envy makes them believe they can make more E+ sales with it as a column at booking versus an upcharge on the seatmap. Perhaps in this economy with many more people willing to pay for a "premium experience" that's true.
(2) Overloading the B fare class like this is not sustainable. I don't think they can continue giving away PN space for the cost of a K fare plus the E+ differential, and so they probably need a long-term solution. The use of the ZZP fare type, piggy-backing on PE delegation to B, and auto-free-E+ all reek of "quick hack". It's unclear what the long-term solution is, but DL is probably a good model. It's worth noting that I don't think means moving E+ at booking up to Plat is imminent, just the cost-benefit tradeoff of it technically being a "cabin upgrade" rather than a seat selection (SDC bugs during rollout, "does a Silver want to be 'upgraded' to a middle seat?" etc).
It's also worthy of being a new thread solely to point out that a savvy FTer can force this new B fare before UA was "ready" for it if the cost is good for
(a) E+ access cheaper than on seatmap (I'm guessing this is unlikely, but it probably happens)
(b) extra 50% PQM
(c) instant upgrade
(d) much better SDC options since the app usually doesn't do the second inventory check
Confirms the filings are indeed a deliberate attempt to offer E+ as a fare, and the obvious fact that this is a limited rollout/test. Since there is no "Economy Plus" column yet on searches in those markets, I'm guessing the web design team is late with the front-end parts (too busy "improving" the seatmaps I guess
).It doesn't, yet. I think that findark started this thread because the use of B as a pseudo-E+ fare code is similar to DL. When DL made C+ a separate fare class, they also changed the way that they give it to Medallion members. Instead of selecting a C+ seat at booking, DL Medallion members have to be upgraded into C+. DL Platinum and Diamond members can get upgraded "shortly after ticketing" and seem to have last-seat (or near-last-seat) C+ availability. Gold members may be upgraded starting at T-72, and Silver members may be upgraded starting at T-24. And most DL Gold and Silver members can tell you how they lost their preferred C- aisle seat in favor of a C+ middle that they didn't really want.
That being said, I think a few things are extremely likely.
(1) This "test" is going to be successful and they will slowly roll out E+ as some kind of branded fare systemwide. Exec comments on earnings calls seem to make it clear they want to head in this direction.. perhaps market research and/or Delta-envy makes them believe they can make more E+ sales with it as a column at booking versus an upcharge on the seatmap. Perhaps in this economy with many more people willing to pay for a "premium experience" that's true.
(2) Overloading the B fare class like this is not sustainable. I don't think they can continue giving away PN space for the cost of a K fare plus the E+ differential, and so they probably need a long-term solution. The use of the ZZP fare type, piggy-backing on PE delegation to B, and auto-free-E+ all reek of "quick hack". It's unclear what the long-term solution is, but DL is probably a good model. It's worth noting that I don't think means moving E+ at booking up to Plat is imminent, just the cost-benefit tradeoff of it technically being a "cabin upgrade" rather than a seat selection (SDC bugs during rollout, "does a Silver want to be 'upgraded' to a middle seat?" etc).
It's also worthy of being a new thread solely to point out that a savvy FTer can force this new B fare before UA was "ready" for it if the cost is good for
(a) E+ access cheaper than on seatmap (I'm guessing this is unlikely, but it probably happens)
(b) extra 50% PQM
(c) instant upgrade
(d) much better SDC options since the app usually doesn't do the second inventory check
Nov 8, 2019, 6:50 pm
#82
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2017
Programs: AS 75K, DL Silver, UA Platinum, Hilton Gold, Hyatt Discoverist, Marriott Platinum + LT Gold
Posts: 10,519
At DL, you'd generally get your C+ confirmation right away. Then you choose whatever available C+ seat as you like, or stay with the one chosen by the computer.
Nov 8, 2019, 8:00 pm
#83
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Programs: UA 1K 1MMer & LT UC (when flying UA); Hyatt Credit Cardist; HHonors Diamond; Marriott Gold via UA 1K
Posts: 6,956
Not that I trust UA these days, but it seems like they’re just trying to better systematize the domestic legs of PE itineraries, so that pax on PE fares can auto-book into E+ if they’re not Gold or above. Am I missing something? Of course, I would not be surprised at all if my Pollyanna-like thinking is proven wrong, and UA really is engaged in a conspiracy to continue hosing their elites.
Nov 8, 2019, 8:11 pm
#84
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,234
Not that I trust UA these days, but it seems like they’re just trying to better systematize the domestic legs of PE itineraries, so that pax on PE fares can auto-book into E+ if they’re not Gold or above. Am I missing something? Of course, I would not be surprised at all if my Pollyanna-like thinking is proven wrong, and UA really is engaged in a conspiracy to continue hosing their elites.
Nov 8, 2019, 8:14 pm
#85
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: BOS
Programs: UA 1K (2MM); AA LT Gold (1.9 MM); SQ; WN; DL; "Bonvoy Ambassador""
Posts: 398
This would earn the ire of many, and might be an actual (rather than threatened) tipping point for a number of fliers to move to other carriers. Does this mean that you can have E- members being assigned E+ seats at boarding, thereby ending up in a better seat than Premier members who bought regular Y seats? Or, would there be a daisy-chain of upgrades (GS moves to E+, freeing up a seat for 1K, freeing up a seat for Plat, etc.)?
Nov 8, 2019, 8:25 pm
#86
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA MileagePlus (Premier Gold); Hilton HHonors (Gold); Chase Ultimate Rewards; Amex Plat
Posts: 6,680
This would earn the ire of many, and might be an actual (rather than threatened) tipping point for a number of fliers to move to other carriers. Does this mean that you can have E- members being assigned E+ seats at boarding, thereby ending up in a better seat than Premier members who bought regular Y seats? Or, would there be a daisy-chain of upgrades (GS moves to E+, freeing up a seat for 1K, freeing up a seat for Plat, etc.)?
1. TOD upgrades into F
2. TOD upgrades into E+
3. CPU into F
4. CPU into E+
Well okay, (2) and (3) may be swapped, but one thing's for sure, (4) is definitely last. It doesn't really matter though, if I weren't quitting anyway, I'd quit UA if they did this. If I cannot get a confirmed E+ seat at booking, or when switching flights, what's the point of getting UA*G? The latter would severely devalue SDCs too. If it's a benefit, I can SDC to a flight and immediately get a seat in E+. If it's an upgrade, well, you know how that usually goes when you SDC to another flight. They're mostly gone.
Nov 8, 2019, 8:35 pm
#87
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,597
I think the progression would be the following (for domestic):
1. TOD upgrades into F
2. TOD upgrades into E+
3. CPU into F
4. CPU into E+
Well okay, (2) and (3) may be swapped, but one thing's for sure, (4) is definitely last. It doesn't really matter though, if I weren't quitting anyway, I'd quit UA if they did this. If I cannot get a confirmed E+ seat at booking, or when switching flights, what's the point of getting UA*G? The latter would severely devalue SDCs too. If it's a benefit, I can SDC to a flight and immediately get a seat in E+. If it's an upgrade, well, you know how that usually goes when you SDC to another flight. They're mostly gone.
1. TOD upgrades into F
2. TOD upgrades into E+
3. CPU into F
4. CPU into E+
Well okay, (2) and (3) may be swapped, but one thing's for sure, (4) is definitely last. It doesn't really matter though, if I weren't quitting anyway, I'd quit UA if they did this. If I cannot get a confirmed E+ seat at booking, or when switching flights, what's the point of getting UA*G? The latter would severely devalue SDCs too. If it's a benefit, I can SDC to a flight and immediately get a seat in E+. If it's an upgrade, well, you know how that usually goes when you SDC to another flight. They're mostly gone.
Completely agree. UA Gold's main benefit is E+. If that goes away, then any Star Gold (or for that matter other alliance) will do. Hopefully United doesn't go the way of DL on this.
Nov 8, 2019, 8:44 pm
#88
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,359
Well there is free SDCs but I rarely use that perk. When OALs make achieving mid tier elite easier and offer more benefits I’ll skip ship. If UA thinks they have the global travel market cornered, they will be sorely mistaken when they see us international FFs start swapping UA Y for SQ PY and the like. The fare differential is often minuscule if you have the flexibility in travel and will likely offer more bennies.
Nov 8, 2019, 8:49 pm
#89
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, UA Gold, WN, Global Entry; +others wherever miles/points are found
Posts: 14,425
Not that I trust UA these days, but it seems like they’re just trying to better systematize the domestic legs of PE itineraries, so that pax on PE fares can auto-book into E+ if they’re not Gold or above. Am I missing something? Of course, I would not be surprised at all if my Pollyanna-like thinking is proven wrong, and UA really is engaged in a conspiracy to continue hosing their elites.