Last edit by: WineCountryUA
This is an archive thread, the archive thread is https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-airlines-mileageplus/1960195-b737max-cleared-faa-resume-passenger-flights-when-will-ua-max-flights-resume.html
Thread Topic
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
United does not fly the 737 MAX 8 that has been involved in two recent crashes, but it does operate the 737 MAX 9.
How to tell if your flight is scheduled to be operated by the MAX 9:
View your reservation or flight status page, either on the web or on the app. United lists the entire aircraft type. Every flight that is scheduled to be on the 737 MAX will say "Boeing 737 MAX 9." If you see anything else -- for example, "Boeing 737-900," it is not scheduled to be a MAX at this time.
The same is true in search results and anywhere else on the United site.
For advanced users: UA uses the three letter IATA identifier 7M9 for the 737 MAX 9.
All 737 MAX aircraft worldwide (MAX 8, MAX 9, and MAX 10) are currently grounded.
Thread Topic
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
READ BEFORE POSTING
Once again many posters in this thread have forgotten the FT rules and resorted to "Personal attacks, insults, baiting and flaming " and other non-collegial, non-civil discourse. This is not allowed.
Posters appear to be talking at others, talking about others, not discussing the core issues. Repeating the same statements, saying the same thing LOUDER is not civil discourse. These problems are not with one poster, they are not just one point of view, ...
As useful as some discussion here has been, continuing rules violations will lead to suspensions and thread closure. Please think about that before posting.
The purpose of FT is to be an informative forum that, in this case, enables the UA flyer to enhance their travel experience. There are other forums for different types of discussions. This thread was had wide latitude but that latitude is being abused.
Bottom line, if you can not stay within the FT rules and the forum's topic areas, please do not post.
And before posting, ask if you are bringing new contributing information to the discussion -- not just repeating previous points, then please do not post.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
Once again many posters in this thread have forgotten the FT rules and resorted to "Personal attacks, insults, baiting and flaming " and other non-collegial, non-civil discourse. This is not allowed.
Posters appear to be talking at others, talking about others, not discussing the core issues. Repeating the same statements, saying the same thing LOUDER is not civil discourse. These problems are not with one poster, they are not just one point of view, ...
As useful as some discussion here has been, continuing rules violations will lead to suspensions and thread closure. Please think about that before posting.
The purpose of FT is to be an informative forum that, in this case, enables the UA flyer to enhance their travel experience. There are other forums for different types of discussions. This thread was had wide latitude but that latitude is being abused.
Bottom line, if you can not stay within the FT rules and the forum's topic areas, please do not post.
And before posting, ask if you are bringing new contributing information to the discussion -- not just repeating previous points, then please do not post.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
This thread has engendered some strongly felt opinions and a great tendency to wander into many peripherally related topics. By all normal FT moderation standards, this thread would have been permanently closed long ago ( and numerous members receiving disciplinary actions).
However, given the importance of the subject, the UA Moderators have tried to host this discussion but odd here as UA is not the top 1 or 2 or 3 for MAX among North America carriers. However, some have allowed their passion and non-UA related opinions to repeatedly disrupt this discussion.
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
Discussion of Boeing's culture or the impact on Boeing's future is not in scope. Nor is comments on restructuring the regulatory process. Neither is the impacts on COVID on the general air industry -- those are not UA specific and are better discussed elsewhere. And for discussion of UA's future, there is a separate thread.
Additionally repeated postings of essentially the same content should not happen nor unnecessarily inflammatory posts. And of course, the rest of FT posting rules apply including discuss the issue and not the posters.
The Moderator team feels there is a reason / need for this thread but it has been exhausting to have to repeated re-focus the discussion -- don't be the reason this thread is permanently closed ( and get yourself in disciplinary problems).
Stick to the relevant topic which is (repeating myself)
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
However, given the importance of the subject, the UA Moderators have tried to host this discussion but odd here as UA is not the top 1 or 2 or 3 for MAX among North America carriers. However, some have allowed their passion and non-UA related opinions to repeatedly disrupt this discussion.
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
Discussion of Boeing's culture or the impact on Boeing's future is not in scope. Nor is comments on restructuring the regulatory process. Neither is the impacts on COVID on the general air industry -- those are not UA specific and are better discussed elsewhere. And for discussion of UA's future, there is a separate thread.
Additionally repeated postings of essentially the same content should not happen nor unnecessarily inflammatory posts. And of course, the rest of FT posting rules apply including discuss the issue and not the posters.
The Moderator team feels there is a reason / need for this thread but it has been exhausting to have to repeated re-focus the discussion -- don't be the reason this thread is permanently closed ( and get yourself in disciplinary problems).
Stick to the relevant topic which is (repeating myself)
The reason for continuing this thread is to inform the UA traveler on the status of the MAX recertification and if / when UA might deploy the MAX aircraft. And UA flyer's thoughts about UA deploying the MAX if that was to happen.
WineCountryUA
UA coModerator
United does not fly the 737 MAX 8 that has been involved in two recent crashes, but it does operate the 737 MAX 9.
How to tell if your flight is scheduled to be operated by the MAX 9:
View your reservation or flight status page, either on the web or on the app. United lists the entire aircraft type. Every flight that is scheduled to be on the 737 MAX will say "Boeing 737 MAX 9." If you see anything else -- for example, "Boeing 737-900," it is not scheduled to be a MAX at this time.
The same is true in search results and anywhere else on the United site.
For advanced users: UA uses the three letter IATA identifier 7M9 for the 737 MAX 9.
All 737 MAX aircraft worldwide (MAX 8, MAX 9, and MAX 10) are currently grounded.
B737MAX Recertification - Archive
#481
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,406
Well, there are certain countries whose technicians I wouldn't trust. Neither the US nor France is on that list; I agree that either would have done fine. My problem was the insinuation that the FAA was somehow tainted by this conflict of interest -- the very same conflict of interest that the DGAC has.
#482
Join Date: May 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 64
I would trust a trained professional human over a computer any day. When my GPS wants to take me into a ditch because it's not up to date with the latest road construction routings, it's my knowledge of the roads and the human capability to exercise clear and sound judgement based on the criteria, that keeps me from driving into the ditch. While self-driving cars continually get rear-ended because they stop at yellow lights, which is completely counter to human nature, it's my awareness that the vehicle behind me is going too fast to stop that makes me speed up to get through the yellow. It's unconscionable - if indeed this is the case - that a flight system would prevent a manual override because it's been "designed to know better". Really? Our over reliance on tech will doom us. Who's supposed to be in control here?
#483
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Houston/DC
Programs: UA 1K, 1MM
Posts: 564
Looks like the examination of the black boxes is not getting off to a good start Saw this in a news article this morning.
If the investigation is not run correctly following international protocols, it may make it hard to come to definitive conclusions, or at worst might have/imply biased conclusions. Everything needs to be above board with agencies on both sides of the pond for international public confidence.
Meanwhile, the Ethiopian Airlines’ black boxes that were delivered Thursday to a French air accident investigation authority, known by its French acronym BEA, have yet to be opened or examined, a source who spoke to American investigators told Fox News.
American investigators left the facility after arguments broke out over how the protocols for examination, custody and cooperation among the investigators, laid out in the UN’s International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) section 13, were being ignored, the source said.
The source also said the accident site itself was compromised because it was not secured quickly enough, allowing local to ransack it.
American investigators left the facility after arguments broke out over how the protocols for examination, custody and cooperation among the investigators, laid out in the UN’s International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) section 13, were being ignored, the source said.
The source also said the accident site itself was compromised because it was not secured quickly enough, allowing local to ransack it.
#484
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 223
Personally I wish the black boxes had been sent to the UK after Germany declined since France as we all know is the home of Boeing's competitor Airbus. Perhaps Switzerland, Scandanavia, Holland etc. would have been a better choice, but I'm not confident that they have the expertise to get data from damaged black boxes where you seem to have only one opportunity to do it. Similarly, I'm not sure about Japan/South Korea/Singapore, but Australia seems able to do this stuff, and if so, that would have been a better choice than France in terms of the optics.
#485
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston
Programs: UA Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,693
Thank you for the detailed explanation. But this still begs the following simple questions:
1) Why does an MCAS depend on only a single AoA sensor? Isn't this completely contrary to all the design principles of avoiding a "single point of failure"?
2) If MCAS was supposed to make flying more safer, and idiot proof (from getting into a stall situation), isn't it logical for it to shut itself off automatically, when it diagnoses a runaway situation? Why does this MCAS necessitate or relies solely on a pilot to diagnose a critical situation and cutoff the automation - which flies in the face of basic design principles. Does it not?
4) Does it not feel like the MCAS is band-aid to fix a engine positioning design flaw (yes, flaw)? Or to keep the same 737 certification and avoid a costly re-certification process with the FAA. Rather than fix the core issue, they designed a work-around and expecting a human to figure out and kill the "work-around" in a very dangerous situation with alarms blazing and a few seconds to react.
5) So, let's say in the event of manually cutting off the MCAS by pilots, (MCAS allegedly was designed to prevent a stall) would not not risk a stall situation? Because I read the MCAS becomes active ONLY in manual fly mode as opposed to the Autopilot. This last question is truly terrifying. If you design a product designed to work with a workaround that would prevent a fatal stall, if you kill the workaround, wouldn't you add more risk?
6) Boeing can blame the pilot and maintenance - why does a 6 month old aircraft need so much maintenance anyway?
If a manufacturer does not operate with transparency when faced (esp. when faced with design issues), aren't the flying public or even airlines (Ethiopian does not want the US to handle the blackboxes) going to lose faith and confidence in the product, transparency and leadership? Also the FAA it looks like it is hand in gloves with Boeing, because I read that FAA certifies planes based on self-certification. FAA only inspect the procedures and processes and does not really verify the end result (meaning doing a code review - I used to write software that I cannot release to my customer unless it goes through a buddy full code review). Who is watching Boeing? Truly concerning!
I would appreciate clarifications, please.
1) Why does an MCAS depend on only a single AoA sensor? Isn't this completely contrary to all the design principles of avoiding a "single point of failure"?
2) If MCAS was supposed to make flying more safer, and idiot proof (from getting into a stall situation), isn't it logical for it to shut itself off automatically, when it diagnoses a runaway situation? Why does this MCAS necessitate or relies solely on a pilot to diagnose a critical situation and cutoff the automation - which flies in the face of basic design principles. Does it not?
4) Does it not feel like the MCAS is band-aid to fix a engine positioning design flaw (yes, flaw)? Or to keep the same 737 certification and avoid a costly re-certification process with the FAA. Rather than fix the core issue, they designed a work-around and expecting a human to figure out and kill the "work-around" in a very dangerous situation with alarms blazing and a few seconds to react.
5) So, let's say in the event of manually cutting off the MCAS by pilots, (MCAS allegedly was designed to prevent a stall) would not not risk a stall situation? Because I read the MCAS becomes active ONLY in manual fly mode as opposed to the Autopilot. This last question is truly terrifying. If you design a product designed to work with a workaround that would prevent a fatal stall, if you kill the workaround, wouldn't you add more risk?
6) Boeing can blame the pilot and maintenance - why does a 6 month old aircraft need so much maintenance anyway?
If a manufacturer does not operate with transparency when faced (esp. when faced with design issues), aren't the flying public or even airlines (Ethiopian does not want the US to handle the blackboxes) going to lose faith and confidence in the product, transparency and leadership? Also the FAA it looks like it is hand in gloves with Boeing, because I read that FAA certifies planes based on self-certification. FAA only inspect the procedures and processes and does not really verify the end result (meaning doing a code review - I used to write software that I cannot release to my customer unless it goes through a buddy full code review). Who is watching Boeing? Truly concerning!
I would appreciate clarifications, please.
Yes, and that's the key issue - when there is a malfunction, whose fault is it? Hardware or software? When it's faulty hardware a good pilot in the right conditions can use their knowledge to figure out which instrument is right and which is wrong and make adjustments. When the hardware is talking to a computer and the computer is talking to the pilot, the pilot is often left out of important details that might help them decide who is right or wrong.
I have no reason to doubt the integrity of the technicians that will extract the data whichever country oversees this.
However because of the narrative following this case I think it potentially helps Boeing and possibly the FAA (from a perception point of view) if this is done outside the USA. And as mentioned it’s very likely there will be Boeing representatives present.
However because of the narrative following this case I think it potentially helps Boeing and possibly the FAA (from a perception point of view) if this is done outside the USA. And as mentioned it’s very likely there will be Boeing representatives present.
#486
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,452
Airbus FBW aircraft have a different flight control philosophy which is probably beyond the scope of our discussion here, but a) there is a way to manually trim the 320 series, and b) both Airbus and Boeing products have protections built in to address runaway stabilizers, they just have different ways of doing it.
2) If MCAS was supposed to make flying more safer, and idiot proof (from getting into a stall situation), isn't it logical for it to shut itself off automatically, when it diagnoses a runaway situation? Why does this MCAS necessitate or relies solely on a pilot to diagnose a critical situation and cutoff the automation - which flies in the face of basic design principles. Does it not?
MCAS: Hey guys, looks like you're flying into a possible stall, let me start to pitch the nose down to help you out.
Pilot: Thanks, MCAS, we've got it (trims nose down).
MCAS: Ok, I am disengaging.
Pilot: Thanks, MCAS.
MCAS: (five seconds later) Hey guys, still looks like there's a problem, starting to pitch down.
Pilot: (trims nose down) Nope, still good.
MCAS: (five seconds later) Just checking... looks good now.
If the situation doesn't resolve, either because the airplane is still being flown into the stall, or the faulty instrumentation fools the computer into thinking it is, it will keep trying to kick in. At that point, pilots should be able to recognize either that the airplane is approaching a stall, or the response (uncommanded nose down input) is incongruent with other apparent factors, or is not resolving, and steps should be taken to correct the discrepancy. 737 pilots have weighed in on the issue in the course of this thread, but to reiterate, if the controls keep getting heavier (requiring more back pressure on the yoke) while opposite inputs are commanded, the next step is to run a non-normal runaway stab checklist. This will 100% of the time correct an unwanted activation of MCAS protection, because it completely cuts out automated pitch trim.
4) Does it not feel like the MCAS is band-aid to fix a engine positioning design flaw (yes, flaw)? Or to keep the same 737 certification and avoid a costly re-certification process with the FAA. Rather than fix the core issue, they designed a work-around and expecting a human to figure out and kill the "work-around" in a very dangerous situation with alarms blazing and a few seconds to react.
Moreover, if the 737MAX were to require a new type certification, it probably doesn't sell nearly as well as it has, and costs substantially more to develop as well as for airlines to acquire. Economics absolutely come into play, and the public accepts a reasonable compromise between cost and safety, regardless of whether we like to admit it.
5) So, let's say in the event of manually cutting off the MCAS by pilots, (MCAS allegedly was designed to prevent a stall) would not not risk a stall situation? Because I read the MCAS becomes active ONLY in manual fly mode as opposed to the Autopilot. This last question is truly terrifying. If you design a product designed to work with a workaround that would prevent a fatal stall, if you kill the workaround, wouldn't you add more risk?
An aerodynamic stall should never, ever happen in normal commercial flight operations, but strictly speaking, stall does not = fatal. I would wager that the average traveler would be truly terrified to know why many automated systems on commercial aircraft actually exist. For the most part, they work flawlessly day-in and day-out to prevent major catastrophes, and when they don't, that's one reason we still have at least two well-trained pilots sitting at the pointy end.
6) Boeing can blame the pilot and maintenance - why does a 6 month old aircraft need so much maintenance anyway?
Last edited by EWR764; Mar 15, 2019 at 9:13 am
#487
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Boston MA
Programs: UA 1K/1.5 million miler, SU Gold, JL Sapphire
Posts: 529
Got my hands a bit more intimately on one of these projects. The chips, compilers, boards and programs, all different. Takes lots of time, we are talking months and years, but hey, that plane is worth millions and will fly decades, so the investment is worth it.
Of course not ALL the systems are level A. Things like the flight management system, brakes, etc, the stuff that must absolutely not fail, that is level A. The rest have lesser requirements and not the triple redundancy.
Ah, one piece of data, really told to me orally, so cannot vouch for accuracy (and you can bet Boeing and Airbus are NOT publicizing this). On average, how frequently does one of these computers say something different the two others and gets rebooted during TATL? 2-3 times. Not sure if it is for all systems or per system. I am sure a pilot may offer more juicy details here.
I do agree with EWR and stephen on this one: there are two people paid in front of the cabin that are trained to keep the plane safe. When a system goes rogue, they should be the ultimate fail safe. Here, maybe this is what went wrong, or so it seems. The report will tell.
Last edited by skidooman; Mar 15, 2019 at 9:31 am
#488
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,452
IIRC, the A320 had a rather prominent Go Around button on the power levers so in the event of a go-around, the pilot was basically 1. telling the computer he was going around, hence the "illogical" control inputs at a low altitude and speed, and 2. to get the engines up and the airplane in a climb quickly with fewer pilot inputs. Again, IIRC because it was a long time ago and my memory specific are rusty, the fatal A320 crash at the air show many years ago was due to a pilot doing a go-around without pressing the button and getting into an "argument" with the computer who decided his control inputs were illogical and fought with him until the aircraft went into the trees.
It's somewhat ironic that you reference that crash, too, because that investigation has always been marked with doubt stemming from the high political stakes involved with the massive investment of the French government in the program and Airbus as a whole. A credible counter-theory exists which posits that the incipient flight control law of the A320 simply overrode the pilots' attempts to execute what was essentially a missed approach, instead behaving as though the airplane was attempting to land. Substantial changes were made to the flight control software in the wake of that crash.
Well, there are certain countries whose technicians I wouldn't trust. Neither the US nor France is on that list; I agree that either would have done fine. My problem was the insinuation that the FAA was somehow tainted by this conflict of interest -- the very same conflict of interest that the DGAC has.
I certainly would not hold up the French BEA as any sort of global standard-bearer in air crash investigation and impartiality... but what do I know?
#489
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Houston,TX
Programs: UA Plat, Mil Miler, Marriott Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium Elite, National Exec. Elite, Hertz Prez Circle
Posts: 191
Captain (Retd.) Girish Kaushik, who had served in Jet Airways and Air India among other airlines, says:
“Boeing 737-200, then 300, 400, 500, 700, 800, 900 and MAX 8, they seem to be doing a quick fix. They had mounted larger engines far stretching the wings to prevent them from touching the ground. This, I believe caused aerodynamic instability.”
Link to full article:
https://www.thehindu.com/business/ma...?homepage=true
#490
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 42,203
Not looking good so far - early news indicates the jackscrew was found in a position that indicated a full nose-down attitude, similar to the Lion Air crash. This is a contributing factor to the urgent grounding that took place in the USA.
Something shoved that airplane nose down with such veracity the pilot was unable to bring it up.
So now my question is thus - what pilot reports exist that indicate similar behavior by automated flight control systems that the pilot was able to override and restore normal attitude? Do such reports exist that might indicate a trend showing a serious, dangerous defect, and at the same time, pilot error in mishandling the defect with these two crashes?
Something shoved that airplane nose down with such veracity the pilot was unable to bring it up.
So now my question is thus - what pilot reports exist that indicate similar behavior by automated flight control systems that the pilot was able to override and restore normal attitude? Do such reports exist that might indicate a trend showing a serious, dangerous defect, and at the same time, pilot error in mishandling the defect with these two crashes?
#491
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,409
Then I'd go with Australia.....and I don't want those black boxes to come to the USA since if either data cannot be extracted or there's an error made when doing so that destroys some of the data, this would be so much worse for Boeing and the FAA/NTSB. I trust them, but I don't want even the slightest risk of the investigation being viewed as rigged in any way.
OTOH, IMO it's almost criminal that the black boxes weren't immediately sent for analysis as soon as they were found. Plans for where to send them should have been arranged in advance instead of waiting for days (with those MAX 8s still flying around and/or being grounded) before even asking Germany.
OTOH, IMO it's almost criminal that the black boxes weren't immediately sent for analysis as soon as they were found. Plans for where to send them should have been arranged in advance instead of waiting for days (with those MAX 8s still flying around and/or being grounded) before even asking Germany.
#492
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Houston,TX
Programs: UA Plat, Mil Miler, Marriott Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium Elite, National Exec. Elite, Hertz Prez Circle
Posts: 191
Well, there are certain countries whose technicians I wouldn't trust. Neither the US nor France is on that list; I agree that either would have done fine. My problem was the insinuation that the FAA was somehow tainted by this conflict of interest -- the very same conflict of interest that the DGAC has.
Please read this article:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...ump-tweet-call
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Mar 16, 2019 at 1:20 am Reason: Removed OMNI comment
#493
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,452
Let's please not turn this thread political and start discussing the interplay between the Trump administration, the FAA and Boeing, as I am very much enjoying the technical discussion and that's an easy way to run this thread off the rails.
After reading all of the MAX-related ASRS reports (with the understanding that compilation is by no means exhaustive) I can report that it does not show a trend involving the same systems. There were a few entries the media briefly attempted to spin as "evidence" of related complaints, but they were as comparable as apples and oranges to what's been mentioned as causal in the Lion Air crash. The only similarities come at a very broad, technically-insignificant level.
So now my question is thus - what pilot reports exist that indicate similar behavior by automated flight control systems that the pilot was able to override and restore normal attitude? Do such reports exist that might indicate a trend showing a serious, dangerous defect, and at the same time, pilot error in mishandling the defect with these two crashes?
#494
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Houston,TX
Programs: UA Plat, Mil Miler, Marriott Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium Elite, National Exec. Elite, Hertz Prez Circle
Posts: 191
Anyway, your point noted...and that will be the end of this topic.
#495
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston
Programs: UA Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,693
FMS is generally level C, or maybe level B sometimes, but certainly not level A as it does not meet the requirement for severity of failure
conditions ("Failure conditions that would prevent continued safe flight and landing" for Catastrophic requiring level A). Similarly, braking systems are level B.