LASUA1K

I have respect for you as you fly my favorite type. Since you are a sCO pilot, did you see more change or did sUA pilots see more change?

freshairborne

Anecdotal evidence: Air Force One pilots train at the UA training center in Denver. Partly because we have 747 sims and used to fly the 747, but also because someone in a high position thought we had the best training. Pretty solid in my opinion.

FAB

fastfxr

Yep. I've witnessed many mistakes by the RJ pilots lately and it's only a matter of time before it ends in disaster.

freshairborne

To clarify some of the things being discussed here, I'll say a few things for folks to chew on.

The training philosophies between sUA and sCO are vast. The way training has changed for both groups is vast. The personnel changes in higher-up levels in the training departments is vast. We use a lot of procedures from both pre-merger companies, and yes, as pilots, any change from something that has worked in the past seems to be unnecessary. But there's as much perception as reality here.

We have seen SOP things get changed, then changed back again. We all wonder who's method was right. They can't both be...actually, they can. Or they can both be wrong. They can certainly be different from each other as well.

sUA has typically taken a Boeing, Douglas, or Airbus procedure and modified it to try and refine it. A lot of other airlines use an essentially untouched manufacturer procedure.

Example: the 727 had three hydraulic systems, operating under about 2,000 PSI. You spring a leak in one and it's likely going to shoot its juice in an instant. United's Immediate Action Procedure on that had about 15 steps, all in an attempt to trap some juice to use it later, like for putting flaps out or putting the wheels down for landing.

Boeing's procedure was, watch it stabilize (as in, go to zero pressure), then use the other redundant system(s) to fly home safely.

The whole time that I was trying to memorize that IAP as a new-hire in training, I might as well have had flash cards taped to the inside of my eyelids. My check ride in the sim of course had that scenario, and the juice squirted out faster than you can say, "look at that cow standing over that flat rock".

sCO used procedures that were closer to the manufacturer than we did. Some stuff is like they did it, some stuff is like we did it, some stuff is just plain different. Better or worse, there are 12,000+ different opinions.

Does anybody think that one of these internal memos doesn't get sent to some pilot group or another every day? they do. This one was at the wrong place at the wrong time. All it takes is for some aviation expert to be having a slow news day and something like this lands on his or her desk, and things get sensationalized.

FAB

peasant

In the case you give (hydraulic system leak) the Boeing procedure does seem inherently safer. KISS is a good principle, rather than learn a 15 step checklist that doesn't look to add to the safety margin of the aircraft.

freshairborne

I agree. since in that case, the juice is going to be gone before we can do anything about it whether it's an immediate action item or a checklist item. Why waste brain cells memorizing a huge procedure that had a bunch of flowchart stuff, like if this, then that, when if we just let it stabilize, then pull out the checklist.

Truly, I'm glad that at least that part of the "good ol' days" are over. There are other parts that are sorely missed, but they ain't got nuthin' to do with training

FAB

cerealmarketer

Indeed.

Playing it up as some calculated master plan memo is just naive.

n198ua

CNN has picked up the story - they've got a package on their web site.

freshairborne

Airlines that have only one fleet type do only initial, recurrent, and upgrade training, but the rest of them, which is the vast majority, have all kinds of training including transition, which is switching airplanes, so training of all kinds is the norm, not even considered any kind of safety concern in and of itself.

FAB

Karlson

Bring back Tulip and their safety. May be article over reacts, but if it is true, thats horrible.

tuolumne

How about bringing back the wide body heavy checks from Asia? Or Airbus and 737 lines back in house? Because to be fair, those were some decisions championed by Tilton & Co. (And frankly the rest of the domestics desperate for any cost savings). I'd be a lot less worried about the pilots than the questionable 'work' that goes on at these scab outfits.

CO_Nonrev_elite

• No one on here can say whether it was one side or the other. Who knows if it was Continental pilots or United making the errors.
  
• What we do know is that the things being complained about have ZERO to do with things that are affected by the level of training being discussed on here.
  
• The problems being discussed are not items that could have fallen between the cracks between the differences in training programs
  
• Cockpit management is rule 101. If they are not adhering to this, then training has very little to do with it. Not paying attention to the point that you nearly fly into the ground ??? this is not found in between the different training programs.
  
• Captain is 100% in charge, they assert this often, and therefore have to take 100% of the responsibility for what happened, and not start shifting blame towards the other side's training program.
  
• There is not one captain flying for either of these airlines that can say that they were not trained properly in cockpit management.
  
• There is not one captain flying for either of these airlines that can say that they were not trained to pay attention to what's going on to avoid crashing into terrain.

Stop blaming the other side's training, take responsibility for your own actions.

saxman66

I'm trying to figure out how this is a "mistake?"

ajGoes

I'm guessing the poster was mixing up AGL (above ground level) and MSL (mean sea level) elevation. If a passenger had somehow gotten the notion that departing aircraft have to climb to 10,000 ft AGL, then being only around 5,000 ft above the ground near Denver would seem to be a mistake.

RealFan

I fly four to six segments a week and lately about half of those are on UA Express. Your comment above caught my attention. Are you saying that the UAX pilots are undertrained and therefore you are almost certain that a fatal crash is inevitable? Is the same situation true at the regional feeders for AA and DAL? Thanks in advance for any insights or details.