WSJ: United Sent Safety Warning to Pilots
Feb 26, 2015, 1:29 am
#17
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No fatal accidents in quarter of a century. 4 potentially serious incidents recently. UA management responds by immediately calling them to the pilots attention and taking action to "wake them up".
Now, if they hadn't done that and then there was an accident you would have a point. But unless you are granting Smisek psychic abilities, a quick and strong response after the problem is identified is absolutely the best you can ask of a CEO.
Last edited by l etoile; Feb 26, 2015 at 7:30 am Reason: Comment deleted from quote
Feb 26, 2015, 1:43 am
#18
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This is disheartening to read. While I'm not a UA frequent flyer I'm sure this behavior goes on at all other airlines. I've taken several crew resource managment, human factors, and organizational behavior classes. The superiority complex (aka the crusty old captain) is very dangerous, particularly if the first officer is complacent. While it appeared this problem had subsided it looks like it must once again be addressed. I had to laugh at the part of the Union rep wanting the labor group to preside over quality control instead of the company. That's like leaving the match in charge of the dynamite.
Feb 26, 2015, 3:23 am
#19
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Sounds like a labor/management problem
Serious stuff, indeed. But I'm heartened that UA is calling attention among pilots to these problems, rather than trying to sweep them under the carpet.
I wonder how much the company's dynamic crew scheduling contributes to the problems? On Sunday, I was on a flight where one of the cockpit crew arrived 15 minutes before we pushed back from the gate. Presumably the other had done the walk around and some other pre-flight checks, but once everyone was boarded we sat another 10 minutes until the pilot or co-pilot boarded, then the cockpit and cabin doors closed, and then we pushed back.
I wonder how much time for briefing and teamwork there was in the cockpit before takeoff on that flight? We landed quite safely in YVR, I must add.
I wonder how much the company's dynamic crew scheduling contributes to the problems? On Sunday, I was on a flight where one of the cockpit crew arrived 15 minutes before we pushed back from the gate. Presumably the other had done the walk around and some other pre-flight checks, but once everyone was boarded we sat another 10 minutes until the pilot or co-pilot boarded, then the cockpit and cabin doors closed, and then we pushed back.
I wonder how much time for briefing and teamwork there was in the cockpit before takeoff on that flight? We landed quite safely in YVR, I must add.
On the one hand:
- Stories of disgruntled, unhappy senior pilots
- stories about "pilot pushing" and the gap between written rules and practice
- Pairing very senior pilots with newbies on "challenging" routes
- Poor or at least incomplete transition to a single airline
On the other:
- Hiring 50 new pilots per month
- "Dynamic" scheduling to maximize labor efficiency
- Pressure to improve abysmal operational performance
- A memo that very publicly blames pilots for recent incidents
While its laudable to address safety concerns early and often, the response from the union suggests this is in part an ongoing labor dispute and the memo was a calculated move to blame pilots for what must be a complex, multi-factor problem. CRM begins with management commitment to crew integration. By the sound of things, that element is missing or lacking.
Crews who have never worked together before, who don't conduct required briefings together and who fly particularly challenging, unfamiliar routes are likely to have greater incident rates. This alone is troubling. Combined with morale issues and the rapid influx of new pilots, this would be a management problem under the best of circumstances. As we know, UA doesn't operate under the best of circumstances.
This is worrying.
As though we needed one more reason to avoid United...
Feb 26, 2015, 3:36 am
#20
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In that case, I guess you can point to the specific aspects of the manuals, procedures and training protocols that were changed from their pre-merger United state and how those changes contributed to the safety concerns for which the bulletin was intended to address?
Absent some facts in support, another anecdotal generalization is just flamebait. We are talking about a group of professional pilots, and while some post-merger changes came down that were disruptive to procedures many had become accustomed to and familiar with, the assertion that they made the operation less safe is difficult, if not impossible to substantiate. For example, what is the pre-merger point of comparison? Just that legacy United pilots felt more comfortable doing things the way they had since new-hire training?
I'm not disputing that post-merger changes were made to a number of aspects of flight operations, I know there were, but I think it's a bit irresponsible for a lay person to conclude that they made an operation (which carries tens of millions of passengers per year) measurably less safe on the basis of informal discussions and an internal company communication directed to pilots.
Lest we forget the fairly sensationalist news piece that spurred the discussion...
Absent some facts in support, another anecdotal generalization is just flamebait. We are talking about a group of professional pilots, and while some post-merger changes came down that were disruptive to procedures many had become accustomed to and familiar with, the assertion that they made the operation less safe is difficult, if not impossible to substantiate. For example, what is the pre-merger point of comparison? Just that legacy United pilots felt more comfortable doing things the way they had since new-hire training?
I'm not disputing that post-merger changes were made to a number of aspects of flight operations, I know there were, but I think it's a bit irresponsible for a lay person to conclude that they made an operation (which carries tens of millions of passengers per year) measurably less safe on the basis of informal discussions and an internal company communication directed to pilots.
Lest we forget the fairly sensationalist news piece that spurred the discussion...
Feb 26, 2015, 5:14 am
#21
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FAB
Last edited by J.Edward; Feb 26, 2015 at 5:46 am Reason: merge
Feb 26, 2015, 5:50 am
#22
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On a recent Rj flight we de iced, took off for a bumpy climb out. It's 5-10 minutes and We hadn't broken thru yet and I'm a bit surprised. We banked hard left and the power was cut back. Odd. I'm on the left side window and we are not nearly as high as we usually are. Like I can see rows in the fields and it's got texture- like 5,000 feet or so.
We level off and throttle up and eventually break out on top. We land in CVG and one of the pilots is waiting for bags and I ask him about the climb out. He pauses and thinks back " No, we went to ten thousand", with the subtext 'dumbass'.
And I'm thinking, we departed DEN.....
We level off and throttle up and eventually break out on top. We land in CVG and one of the pilots is waiting for bags and I ask him about the climb out. He pauses and thinks back " No, we went to ten thousand", with the subtext 'dumbass'.
And I'm thinking, we departed DEN.....
Feb 26, 2015, 6:01 am
#23
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There were/are certain philosophical differences between Houston and Denver when it comes to training, and I think, on a historical basis, CO operated in what may be considered a "leaner" manner. However, I think most will agree United of 2010 was a far different animal from United of 1993, so I think it's probably not correct to chalk any perceived training deficiencies up to the old sCO vs. sUA tug-of-war. There's more to it than that.
Just my $0.02, for all that's worth.
Just my $0.02, for all that's worth.
Feb 26, 2015, 6:50 am
#24
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There's nothing public about the memo. It was internal, pilots only.
It only became public when leaked, possibly by disgruntled pilots. As we all know sUA has no history of bad relations with the pilots union (cough).
From the facts there were some serious lapses in December. The memo is a physical manifestation of them. There are probably lots of other meetings and actions being taken behind the scenes as it's an issue owned by all sides, not just management. It's just as possible some pilots are stonewalling on crew integration as management is.
There are no innocent parties here.
It only became public when leaked, possibly by disgruntled pilots. As we all know sUA has no history of bad relations with the pilots union (cough).
From the facts there were some serious lapses in December. The memo is a physical manifestation of them. There are probably lots of other meetings and actions being taken behind the scenes as it's an issue owned by all sides, not just management. It's just as possible some pilots are stonewalling on crew integration as management is.
There are no innocent parties here.
Reading between the lines here:
On the one hand:
- Stories of disgruntled, unhappy senior pilots
- stories about "pilot pushing" and the gap between written rules and practice
- Pairing very senior pilots with newbies on "challenging" routes
- Poor or at least incomplete transition to a single airline
On the other:
- Hiring 50 new pilots per month
- "Dynamic" scheduling to maximize labor efficiency
- Pressure to improve abysmal operational performance
- A memo that very publicly blames pilots for recent incidents
While its laudable to address safety concerns early and often, the response from the union suggests this is in part an ongoing labor dispute and the memo was a calculated move to blame pilots for what must be a complex, multi-factor problem. CRM begins with management commitment to crew integration. By the sound of things, that element is missing or lacking.
Crews who have never worked together before, who don't conduct required briefings together and who fly particularly challenging, unfamiliar routes are likely to have greater incident rates. This alone is troubling. Combined with morale issues and the rapid influx of new pilots, this would be a management problem under the best of circumstances. As we know, UA doesn't operate under the best of circumstances.
This is worrying.
As though we needed one more reason to avoid United...
On the one hand:
- Stories of disgruntled, unhappy senior pilots
- stories about "pilot pushing" and the gap between written rules and practice
- Pairing very senior pilots with newbies on "challenging" routes
- Poor or at least incomplete transition to a single airline
On the other:
- Hiring 50 new pilots per month
- "Dynamic" scheduling to maximize labor efficiency
- Pressure to improve abysmal operational performance
- A memo that very publicly blames pilots for recent incidents
While its laudable to address safety concerns early and often, the response from the union suggests this is in part an ongoing labor dispute and the memo was a calculated move to blame pilots for what must be a complex, multi-factor problem. CRM begins with management commitment to crew integration. By the sound of things, that element is missing or lacking.
Crews who have never worked together before, who don't conduct required briefings together and who fly particularly challenging, unfamiliar routes are likely to have greater incident rates. This alone is troubling. Combined with morale issues and the rapid influx of new pilots, this would be a management problem under the best of circumstances. As we know, UA doesn't operate under the best of circumstances.
This is worrying.
As though we needed one more reason to avoid United...
Feb 26, 2015, 7:03 am
#25
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And if you want another read on pilot safety concerns and labor relations...here is Cranky's report on AA and US pilots trying to walk away from a voluntary safety reporting program
http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/22/us...participation/
Worth a read. In these cases the unions walked away from a universally recognized safety reporting program, using it as a bargaining tool for negotiations.
Sadly again no innocent parties in these issues and certainly not limited to this management team.
http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/22/us...participation/
Worth a read. In these cases the unions walked away from a universally recognized safety reporting program, using it as a bargaining tool for negotiations.
Sadly again no innocent parties in these issues and certainly not limited to this management team.
Feb 26, 2015, 7:09 am
#26
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There's nothing public about the memo. It was internal, pilots only.
It only became public when leaked, possibly by disgruntled pilots. As we all know sUA has no history of bad relations with the pilots union (cough).
From the facts there were some serious lapses in December. The memo is a physical manifestation of them. There are probably lots of other meetings and actions being taken behind the scenes as it's an issue owned by all sides, not just management. It's just as possible some pilots are stonewalling on crew integration as management is.
There are no innocent parties here.
It only became public when leaked, possibly by disgruntled pilots. As we all know sUA has no history of bad relations with the pilots union (cough).
From the facts there were some serious lapses in December. The memo is a physical manifestation of them. There are probably lots of other meetings and actions being taken behind the scenes as it's an issue owned by all sides, not just management. It's just as possible some pilots are stonewalling on crew integration as management is.
There are no innocent parties here.
This was deliberate and calculated, as all corporate comms are. Not saying they did well or poorly.
I agree that there are many sides to every story. But this is the company positioning itself.
Feb 26, 2015, 7:10 am
#27
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Reading between the lines here:
On the one hand:
- Stories of disgruntled, unhappy senior pilots
- stories about "pilot pushing" and the gap between written rules and practice
- Pairing very senior pilots with newbies on "challenging" routes
- Poor or at least incomplete transition to a single airline
On the other:
- Hiring 50 new pilots per month
- "Dynamic" scheduling to maximize labor efficiency
- Pressure to improve abysmal operational performance
- A memo that very publicly blames pilots for recent incidents
On the one hand:
- Stories of disgruntled, unhappy senior pilots
- stories about "pilot pushing" and the gap between written rules and practice
- Pairing very senior pilots with newbies on "challenging" routes
- Poor or at least incomplete transition to a single airline
On the other:
- Hiring 50 new pilots per month
- "Dynamic" scheduling to maximize labor efficiency
- Pressure to improve abysmal operational performance
- A memo that very publicly blames pilots for recent incidents
Feb 26, 2015, 7:56 am
#28
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I have been particularly alert to the consequences of a "failure to communicate" since the KAL accidents of the 1990s. The answer may be before me, but with all the labor issues post merger issues, it is difficult to keep track. Are pmUA and pmCO pilots flying together? I gather from previous texts that pmCO flight training is now the norm for the merged company.
Feb 26, 2015, 8:37 am
#29
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This actually doesn't surprise me. Reading many of the complaints here, it seems that United has an issue end to end. Customer service, gate agents, 3rd party contractors (a la DEN) all seem to have training deficiencies leading to operational failures large and small. Why wouldn't the same thing affect the pilot groups as well?
It seems to be emblematic of a corporate culture issue that is taking root as the merger introduced significant change to both organizations.
It seems to be emblematic of a corporate culture issue that is taking root as the merger introduced significant change to both organizations.