Am I just ignorantly blissful? I'm happy with UA.
Jun 21, 2014, 12:06 am
#121
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 83
My last six flights on UA have been fine and a couple were great. UA could do better in some areas, but that is true of every carrier.
Some hardcore whiners/haters on this board are generally not representative of what most people experience flying UA.
Some hardcore whiners/haters on this board are generally not representative of what most people experience flying UA.
Jun 21, 2014, 12:11 am
#122
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas
Programs: DL Platinum, AA Lifetime Gold, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum, Radisson Premium
Posts: 6,638
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 7_1_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/537.51.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/7.0 Mobile/11D201 Safari/9537.53)
Financial results say otherwise.enjoy your half cashews!
Originally Posted by KnightInWhiteSatin
My last six flights on UA have been fine and a couple were great. UA could do better in some areas, but that is true of every carrier.
Some hardcore whiners/haters on this board are generally not representative of what most people experience flying UA.
Some hardcore whiners/haters on this board are generally not representative of what most people experience flying UA.
Jun 21, 2014, 12:30 am
#123
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
United is still filling a lot of seats, so not everyone has fled. My guess is that millions of customers (perhaps tens of millions) have been satisfied with their United experience. They willingly purchased tickets and have all safely reached their destinations.
But as with every big company, some are dissatisfied with their United experience, and some number of them have reduced their purchases from United. Nobody on the outside knows the exact number of them, but AA's aggressive courting of the 1Ks over the past two plus years has helped AA increase its revenues by a much larger percentage than has UA since March, 2012. That's an undeniable fact. Delta and US also attracted higher yields, unit revenues and overall revenues in that two years as well.
UA was the only airline of the big four (AA, DL, UA and WN) to lose money during the first quarter, and it wasn't close to break-even - UA suffered a huge net loss even when we ignore the special items.
The wings haven't come off yet, but UA is wounded, and it's clear that some of that financial damage resulted from the actions and attitudes of its executive team. Each subsequent announcement from those maroons appears to be a step in the wrong direction, as if they can magically make bigger profits (or smaller net losses) if they only make the frequent flyer program even less appealing. As if UA's multi-hundred million dollar net loss resulted from an overly-generous mileage loyalty program.
As I've said before, hope the other airline CEOs sent Smisek a nice gift basket, as he's singlehandedly boosted their revenues by a large measure (while UA's revenue growth lags the industry).
But as with every big company, some are dissatisfied with their United experience, and some number of them have reduced their purchases from United. Nobody on the outside knows the exact number of them, but AA's aggressive courting of the 1Ks over the past two plus years has helped AA increase its revenues by a much larger percentage than has UA since March, 2012. That's an undeniable fact. Delta and US also attracted higher yields, unit revenues and overall revenues in that two years as well.
UA was the only airline of the big four (AA, DL, UA and WN) to lose money during the first quarter, and it wasn't close to break-even - UA suffered a huge net loss even when we ignore the special items.
The wings haven't come off yet, but UA is wounded, and it's clear that some of that financial damage resulted from the actions and attitudes of its executive team. Each subsequent announcement from those maroons appears to be a step in the wrong direction, as if they can magically make bigger profits (or smaller net losses) if they only make the frequent flyer program even less appealing. As if UA's multi-hundred million dollar net loss resulted from an overly-generous mileage loyalty program.
As I've said before, hope the other airline CEOs sent Smisek a nice gift basket, as he's singlehandedly boosted their revenues by a large measure (while UA's revenue growth lags the industry).
On the other hand, the financial results show that Delta gained any extra $1B in revenue over UAL's last quarter when compared to where they both were three years ago (1Q 2011 to 1Q 2014 revenue and yield growth). Given there were projected to be another $200M in revenue synergies, United is underperformed Delta cumulatively by about 10-12% in revenue. That is a huge sign that lots of folks are not happy. A few unhappy folks don't cause a $1.2B revenue loss....
What is this loss composed of? My guess (and I can't assign % these are just likely causes):
(1) the need to give much larger discounts to managed corporate accounts as they will not pay the same as before to fly UAL;
(2) A loss of some/much of the un-manged full fare traffic that UAL used to get;
(3) the defection of both middle level and top elites which reduces the consistant demand that UAL used to have.
Losing (2) and (3) then means less last minute and higher fare demand, which has necessitated more discounting to fill planes, and a worse revenue mix. I also think this is the root cause of the revenue management system problems UAL has had since Jeff took over. They lost so much High value and base load traffic that their load demand projections no longer work right.
Last edited by spin88; Jun 21, 2014 at 12:36 am
Jun 21, 2014, 1:12 am
#124
Moderator: Hyatt Gold Passport & Star Alliance
Join Date: May 1998
Location: London, UK
Programs: UA-1K 3MM/HY- LT Globalist/BA-GGL/GfL
Posts: 12,094
I think many of us remember when United was a great customer-focused airline. Lots of change has happened and my recent experience has been, as many report, that when things are OK they are fine, but as soon as things go off-course you're stuck holding the problem, with United doing almost nothing to help.
It's so disappointing that it's come to this - but I've also got more brutal with United now. I make sure that every time a problem happens I complain - compensation sometimes; often nothing.
Every time they have a mechanical failure and book me in a middle coach seat I consider whether its best to cancel, have them rebook me on AA or travel. When an upgrade doesn't clear and they've charged me the co-pay months in advance, I tell United how much I have wasted on them again. Every time a plane change from an international 757 becomes a 739 (no entertainment, power or WiFi), I tell them that I will book AA next time, and I do. Probably 80% of my flying spend this year is BA/AA. A spot trip to Vegas in September, I didn't even look at United's fares. 100k PQM's and I'm done. The staff at Heathrow used to know me by sight, but now I'm just another non-Global Services passenger.
3,517,264 miles later I see this airline now as adversary not a partner.
It's so disappointing that it's come to this - but I've also got more brutal with United now. I make sure that every time a problem happens I complain - compensation sometimes; often nothing.
Every time they have a mechanical failure and book me in a middle coach seat I consider whether its best to cancel, have them rebook me on AA or travel. When an upgrade doesn't clear and they've charged me the co-pay months in advance, I tell United how much I have wasted on them again. Every time a plane change from an international 757 becomes a 739 (no entertainment, power or WiFi), I tell them that I will book AA next time, and I do. Probably 80% of my flying spend this year is BA/AA. A spot trip to Vegas in September, I didn't even look at United's fares. 100k PQM's and I'm done. The staff at Heathrow used to know me by sight, but now I'm just another non-Global Services passenger.
3,517,264 miles later I see this airline now as adversary not a partner.
Jun 21, 2014, 3:24 am
#125
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,068
These two comments resonate with me. Not so much having to complain after the fact, but having to kick and scream when stuff goes awry.
I mean, when I misconnected, and the next flight was full, they put me on the one following. Ok, I get it. But when that flight that was full opens seats, and I go to the United Club rep and ask to move to it due to a previous misconnect, and they say no, I get their name, make sure they know I have it, and threaten to write them into corporate that they realize that I'm not the right customer to blow off and I get taken care of.
Or when a short haul MKE-ORD is delayed, and the "support desk" gives them a hassle about dropping it so I can drive to and pick up the ticket in ORD and wants to charge me fare difference + change fee, I say, "Tell them if they don't drop it for free, I'll fly it, misconnect, everything else is full tonight, we're two 1Ks, that means two hotel rooms, two blocks of meal vouchers, and if American has a flight that gets us in even one minute before yours, I'm going to insist you rebook me on AA." I get taken care of after a threat like that.
Adversary is definitely the right word for UA these days, unfortunately.
Jun 21, 2014, 4:11 am
#126
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2012
Programs: UA PP, AA, DL, BA, CX, SPG, HHonors
Posts: 2,002
These two comments resonate with me. Not so much having to complain after the fact, but having to kick and scream when stuff goes awry.
I mean, when I misconnected, and the next flight was full, they put me on the one following. Ok, I get it. But when that flight that was full opens seats, and I go to the United Club rep and ask to move to it due to a previous misconnect, and they say no, I get their name, make sure they know I have it, and threaten to write them into corporate that they realize that I'm not the right customer to blow off and I get taken care of.
Or when a short haul MKE-ORD is delayed, and the "support desk" gives them a hassle about dropping it so I can drive to and pick up the ticket in ORD and wants to charge me fare difference + change fee, I say, "Tell them if they don't drop it for free, I'll fly it, misconnect, everything else is full tonight, we're two 1Ks, that means two hotel rooms, two blocks of meal vouchers, and if American has a flight that gets us in even one minute before yours, I'm going to insist you rebook me on AA." I get taken care of after a threat like that.
Adversary is definitely the right word for UA these days, unfortunately.
I mean, when I misconnected, and the next flight was full, they put me on the one following. Ok, I get it. But when that flight that was full opens seats, and I go to the United Club rep and ask to move to it due to a previous misconnect, and they say no, I get their name, make sure they know I have it, and threaten to write them into corporate that they realize that I'm not the right customer to blow off and I get taken care of.
Or when a short haul MKE-ORD is delayed, and the "support desk" gives them a hassle about dropping it so I can drive to and pick up the ticket in ORD and wants to charge me fare difference + change fee, I say, "Tell them if they don't drop it for free, I'll fly it, misconnect, everything else is full tonight, we're two 1Ks, that means two hotel rooms, two blocks of meal vouchers, and if American has a flight that gets us in even one minute before yours, I'm going to insist you rebook me on AA." I get taken care of after a threat like that.
Adversary is definitely the right word for UA these days, unfortunately.
When I hear companies firing difficult customers, I always applaud. They deserve what they get.
Jun 21, 2014, 4:35 am
#127
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,068
Is a customer just supposed to take a lousy rebook because that's what they got? If something better opens up after a misconnect to minimize some of the delay, they should switch it without question, not hassle their customers.
It's lazy employees and poor customer service that create the adversarial relationship, not the other way around.
Jun 21, 2014, 4:46 am
#128
Moderator: Hyatt Gold Passport & Star Alliance
Join Date: May 1998
Location: London, UK
Programs: UA-1K 3MM/HY- LT Globalist/BA-GGL/GfL
Posts: 12,094
[Moderator edit to reflect deletion of quoted post.]
I am afraid I won't be 'grateful' for whatever United decides is appropriate for me when they have a service problem. So on this cancellation - which was connecting for a 12 hour stay in SJU:
United thought a middle seat in Economy was the appropriate rebooking. (I was originally in Upgraded First). United had done nothing to rebook me, even though they knew I was on the way on their aircraft, on the same ticket when they cancelled the flight. No proactive rebooking and I was one of dozens of passengers in the United Club booked on this flight.
In the old days I would have been proactively rebooked, someone would have met me at gate and handed me the new boarding passes. Alas no longer.
I am afraid I won't be 'grateful' for whatever United decides is appropriate for me when they have a service problem. So on this cancellation - which was connecting for a 12 hour stay in SJU:
United thought a middle seat in Economy was the appropriate rebooking. (I was originally in Upgraded First). United had done nothing to rebook me, even though they knew I was on the way on their aircraft, on the same ticket when they cancelled the flight. No proactive rebooking and I was one of dozens of passengers in the United Club booked on this flight.
In the old days I would have been proactively rebooked, someone would have met me at gate and handed me the new boarding passes. Alas no longer.
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Jun 21, 2014 at 8:53 am Reason: See note above.
Jun 21, 2014, 5:03 am
#129
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,068
[Conforming moderator edit to deleted post.]
It has to do with how they handle rebooks in IRROPS, it has nothing to do with entitlement.
They shouldn't treat a 1K this way, they shouldn't treat a general member this way.
An IRROP'ed passenger should get the best available flight at the time of the interaction. If something better opens up and they interact with an employee again, they should get that instead. Why couldn't they just move me when I asked? The flight had space open up, I wasn't asking for them to oversell it or anything. The shouldn't hassle the customer, and a customer shouldn't have to pressure them to do their job. They should have just done it (which, incidentally, is what the IRROP tool in OLCI would have allowed if my record hadn't been wonky).
Same with other scenario -- they have a delay, the misconnect looks likely, just whack the segment and let the customer get going. I wasn't asking them for a taxi from MKE to ORD, I was covering it myself. Once I demonstrated that not helping would be more costly, they changed their tune quickly. But why couldn't they help before realizing a financial consequence? That's what a reputable provider would have done.
It shouldn't have to be this way. It's not like this with DL, and it wasn't like this with PMUA.
It has to do with how they handle rebooks in IRROPS, it has nothing to do with entitlement.
They shouldn't treat a 1K this way, they shouldn't treat a general member this way.
An IRROP'ed passenger should get the best available flight at the time of the interaction. If something better opens up and they interact with an employee again, they should get that instead. Why couldn't they just move me when I asked? The flight had space open up, I wasn't asking for them to oversell it or anything. The shouldn't hassle the customer, and a customer shouldn't have to pressure them to do their job. They should have just done it (which, incidentally, is what the IRROP tool in OLCI would have allowed if my record hadn't been wonky).
Same with other scenario -- they have a delay, the misconnect looks likely, just whack the segment and let the customer get going. I wasn't asking them for a taxi from MKE to ORD, I was covering it myself. Once I demonstrated that not helping would be more costly, they changed their tune quickly. But why couldn't they help before realizing a financial consequence? That's what a reputable provider would have done.
It shouldn't have to be this way. It's not like this with DL, and it wasn't like this with PMUA.
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Jun 21, 2014 at 8:54 am
Jun 21, 2014, 6:06 am
#130
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: US
Programs: AA/UA/DL
Posts: 2,773
[Conforming moderator edit re deleted post.]
It's the piss poor "there is nothing we can do" attitude from the employees cause the problem.
Last month, I travel with DL as a gold member. (I don't need to be Platinum or Diamond to get taken care of)
Our flight got Jeff'ed up...no .....our flight got WX and delayed which would cause me miss my connecting flight.
Without me saying anything, the DL gate agent rebooked me on a nonstop US flight within one minute. (unlike new UA with SHARES .....agent needs half hr to rebook and has to call help desk.) She handed me the new itinerary with a smile on her face. As a US silver, I got the upgrade on the rebooked flight. Everything was smooth. I would like to pay more to DL to get better service. I remember the pmUA treated their 1K the same way and tried their best to help customers.
We are all human...what makes new United more entitled than other airlines?
It's the piss poor "there is nothing we can do" attitude from the employees cause the problem.
Last month, I travel with DL as a gold member. (I don't need to be Platinum or Diamond to get taken care of)
Our flight got Jeff'ed up...no .....our flight got WX and delayed which would cause me miss my connecting flight.
Without me saying anything, the DL gate agent rebooked me on a nonstop US flight within one minute. (unlike new UA with SHARES .....agent needs half hr to rebook and has to call help desk.) She handed me the new itinerary with a smile on her face. As a US silver, I got the upgrade on the rebooked flight. Everything was smooth. I would like to pay more to DL to get better service. I remember the pmUA treated their 1K the same way and tried their best to help customers.
We are all human...what makes new United more entitled than other airlines?
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Jun 21, 2014 at 8:54 am
Jun 21, 2014, 7:06 am
#131
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: MS Coast/China
Programs: UA GS, 1.5 MM
Posts: 201
Well I read the first and last page of this thread and the last page turned into what the first page was talking about. UA has made me happy FAR more times than not. I am longtime GS and while that service is not what it once was I have seen definite improvements this year. I know my view is slanted by my status but UA has done good by me and I am happy. I know the new 2015 MP program is catching lots of flak now but for ones like me it is a big benefit as I will bank far more miles than previous years with the same comparative amount of travel.
Jun 21, 2014, 7:10 am
#132
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,617
[Conforming edit re deleted post]
Please see Pigx5's post immediately above. This is what is wrong with the current state of UA. I've also been treated better on DL as a silver as I'm treated on UA as a 1k, and that simply isn't a smart way for a customer service business to operate.
and isnt impossible to do - prior to the merger, UA's IRROPs were the best in the industry. Now, among the majors, its the worst. As frequent customers, why shouldn't we demand better?
Please see Pigx5's post immediately above. This is what is wrong with the current state of UA. I've also been treated better on DL as a silver as I'm treated on UA as a 1k, and that simply isn't a smart way for a customer service business to operate.
and isnt impossible to do - prior to the merger, UA's IRROPs were the best in the industry. Now, among the majors, its the worst. As frequent customers, why shouldn't we demand better?
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Jun 21, 2014 at 8:55 am
Jun 21, 2014, 7:18 am
#133
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: PIT
Programs: OZ Diamond, UA Gold
Posts: 9,926
1. I don't find discussion discussing what can be done to improve UA to be pointless. I find countless bashing with little to no basis and no true discussion of what can be done other than "kick Smisek out!" Or "bring back PMUA!" To be pointless.
2. It still seems to be the same 10 or so people, maybe one or two veteran members joined in, and a few new members.
3. People have been intimidated out of this very thread, or at least there has been an attempt.
Jun 21, 2014, 7:20 am
#134
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NYC, LON
Programs: *
Posts: 2,774
There are plenty examples of companies making mega loss but whose customers or clients are happy. Indeed sometimes the things that make the customer happy are more likely to reduce the profitability of the company.
Jun 21, 2014, 7:31 am
#135
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SRQ, PDX
Programs: UA 1 MM, AA, DL
Posts: 930
[Conforming moderator edit re deleted post.]
Are you opposed to including the pax (a k a " the customer") in the selection process for onward travel in this circumstance?
You can only speculate about the pax "attitude," and have no basis for describing it as "poor."
Do you understand that for some pax a middle seat in Y is not a travel option under any circumstance?
"Entitled" is, again, your word. After reading the above posts about what I agree are shameful UA rebooking decisions, I would have thought that once UA understood--or at least hope they understood--the financial consequences of their flawed efforts thus far, they would appreciate any cost-effective re-routing suggestion for such a loyal passenger.
So the question is: Is this 1K or GS or MM worth the extra effort? Is any 1K or GS or MM worth any extra effort any more?
Are you opposed to including the pax (a k a " the customer") in the selection process for onward travel in this circumstance?
You can only speculate about the pax "attitude," and have no basis for describing it as "poor."
Do you understand that for some pax a middle seat in Y is not a travel option under any circumstance?
"Entitled" is, again, your word. After reading the above posts about what I agree are shameful UA rebooking decisions, I would have thought that once UA understood--or at least hope they understood--the financial consequences of their flawed efforts thus far, they would appreciate any cost-effective re-routing suggestion for such a loyal passenger.
So the question is: Is this 1K or GS or MM worth the extra effort? Is any 1K or GS or MM worth any extra effort any more?
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Jun 21, 2014 at 8:56 am