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-   -   Local lockdowns in the UK (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/u-k-ireland/2025295-local-lockdowns-uk.html)

casper.slo Jun 12, 2021 5:07 pm

Yes, but that's the case with any infectious viruses that we have lived with. We can minimise that extremely rare risk of getting infected outside with some extra precautions, but what is the point exactly? Zero covid? For example in countries like Poland or Spain you could be fined for walking alone in the forest without the mask on. I don't think there is anyone who can see any point in this?

Btw. it really surprises me how we could live with 20k+ annual flu deaths in the past and people were willing to take the risk with no masks and no social distancing, but now we try to reduce risk of catching covid to absolute zero, despite having over 80% of population with present antibodies against covid.

Anyway, it's just 4 weeks to flatten the curve.

cauchy Jun 12, 2021 5:47 pm


Originally Posted by Kgmm77 (Post 33323929)
Hence the Swiss cheese model of risk reduction, of which masks are a part.

On the other hand, there are people with covid symptoms who roam the streets thinking "hey, I'm wearing a mask so I don't need to worry about my dry cough / temperature / loss of smell." Perhaps there is a risk that enforcing masks in pretty much every circumstance leads people to think they are more effective than they really are.

Kgmm77 Jun 12, 2021 7:00 pm


Originally Posted by casper.slo (Post 33324009)
Yes, but that's the case with any infectious viruses that we have lived with. We can minimise that extremely rare risk of getting infected outside with some extra precautions, but what is the point exactly? Zero covid? For example in countries like Poland or Spain you could be fined for walking alone in the forest without the mask on. I don't think there is anyone who can see any point in this?

Btw. it really surprises me how we could live with 20k+ annual flu deaths in the past and people were willing to take the risk with no masks and no social distancing, but now we try to reduce risk of catching covid to absolute zero, despite having over 80% of population with present antibodies against covid.

Anyway, it's just 4 weeks to flatten the curve.

Masks have not, to my knowledge, been required outdoors in the U.K. & Ireland, only advised in crowded scenarios.

If the U.K. Government is targeting zero Covid as you say, recent experience would indicate it’s not doing a great job, given cases are in the thousands per day and increasing steadily for 3 weeks, yet there are no additional domestic restrictions. So I think it’s fair to say the strategy clearly isn’t zero Covid, nor has it ever been.


Originally Posted by cauchy (Post 33324075)
On the other hand, there are people with covid symptoms who roam the streets thinking "hey, I'm wearing a mask so I don't need to worry about my dry cough / temperature / loss of smell." Perhaps there is a risk that enforcing masks in pretty much every circumstance leads people to think they are more effective than they really are.

Undoubtedly this is true. But see above reference to Swiss Cheese model. There are no absolutes, no single measure is perfect, or even close to it. But the amount of people for whom mask wearing invites them to risk such moral hazard is outweighed by the benefit for the vast majority who don’t behave like this.

I’m generally not convinced by mask wearing outdoors in all but exceptional circumstances. unfortunately experience shows that when people should wear them, they don’t, unless they are told to.

Finally, I’d like to see all of those who consistently push back against restrictions to quote their appetite for deaths and hospitalisation. Put your cards on the table. What is acceptable to you?

:D! Jun 13, 2021 3:18 am


Originally Posted by cauchy (Post 33324075)
On the other hand, there are people with covid symptoms who roam the streets thinking "hey, I'm wearing a mask so I don't need to worry about my dry cough / temperature / loss of smell." Perhaps there is a risk that enforcing masks in pretty much every circumstance leads people to think they are more effective than they really are.

I don't think many people think like this - maybe only if you're at the borderline where you start to notice something that might be a covid symptom but not entirely sure yet. Otherwise I suspect people either know they have symptoms, don't care and go out regardless (or feel they can't afford to skip work etc), or they stay in.

I do think it's silly to wear masks in the countryside where you only come into contact with people walking in the opposite direction for 3 seconds. You can just face away from them while passing if you really want to. However I do see a place for masks outdoors, perhaps not now when infection rates are quite low, but when ~1 in 30 people were infected it may have made some sense in crowded town centres particularly where people are going in and out of shops and public transport frequently.

Some (most) people like to remove their mask the moment they step outdoors - that seems to defeat the purpose as if there are viral particles in the air they would be concentrated around doors and get flung into other people's faces.

Silver Fox Jun 13, 2021 5:04 am

Masks outside? Lunatics have truly taken over the asylum if that happens. It's bad enough that they are willing to keep sacrificing education, the economy, mental health, any-illness-but-covid on this altar of righteousness - but masks outside? Absolutely bonkers. If only we had vaccines....

Dan1113 Jun 13, 2021 5:29 am


Originally Posted by Silver Fox (Post 33324771)
Masks outside? Lunatics have truly taken over the asylum if that happens. It's bad enough that they are willing to keep sacrificing education, the economy, mental health, any-illness-but-covid on this altar of righteousness - but masks outside? Absolutely bonkers. If only we had vaccines....

I work in education. Care to explain to me how we have sacrificed education by having to wear masks in the class?

PS I was back at work full time with kids in February, mid hard lockdown while everyone else still was WFH.

Silver Fox Jun 13, 2021 5:32 am


Originally Posted by Dan1113 (Post 33324786)
I work in education. Care to explain to me how we have sacrificed education by having to wear masks in the class?

PS I was back at work full time with kids in February, mid hard lockdown while everyone else still was WFH.

Teachers, great. University lecturers, unprintable.

squawk Jun 13, 2021 6:09 am


Originally Posted by Silver Fox (Post 33324790)
Teachers, great. University lecturers, unprintable.

Rather sad that you appear to have so much disdain for university lecturers - as I recall this isn't the first time you've cast aspersions on them. I have some insight into aspects of this, and the underlying insinuation of your posts that lecturers have done f*** all during the pandemic unlike more 'worthy' individuals is pretty far off the mark.

Actually, quite a lot were teaching in person throughout the lockdowns because their subjects require a substantial proportion of in-person teaching - particularly the case for medicine and nursing.

Meanwhile those whose subjects were not taught in person were delivering content from their homes, often simultaneously trying to home-school children, just like any other professional who could WFH. Even where some local authorities offered 'essential worker' status to university researchers, many didn't take it up because they (rightly IMO) felt these limited essential worker places should go to the children of people who literally could not work from home, starting with doctors, nurses, and other NHS staff.

And all the above is to say nothing of the work that many were involved in, often in their evenings and weekends, to feed into rapid research and evidence summaries to try to quantify to Covid risks (e.g. aerosol transmission on transport).

As for masks - if indoor masks enable in-person teaching to go ahead in schools and universities when otherwise it wouldn't, this is a good thing. There seems to be more inclination to wear them outside in the US than the UK, I'm not sure why.

Cathay1101 Jun 13, 2021 6:55 am

My father arrived into T5 this morning and apparently the eGates were working and a BF officer informed him that the PLFs/COVID documentation no longer required manual checks and were integrated into the eGate verification process via passport number. A promising development, although arriving on Friday at STN this wasn't the case - perhaps it requires manual software updates on the physical gates? I did see a number of the gates at STN were closed for 'maintenance works'.

JEM_NYC Jun 13, 2021 7:02 am


Originally Posted by DaveS (Post 33323074)
Daily data:

Cases 7,738 (5,765 last Saturday)
Deaths 12 (13)
Patients admitted 187 (154 on the 1st)
Patients in hospital 1,089 (932 on the 3rd)
Patients in ventilation beds 158 (134 on the 3rd)
People vaccinated up to and including 11 June 2021:
First dose: 41,291,331
Second dose: 29,450,653

The rolling seven day daily average for cases is now up 52.5% on the previous week and the same measure for deaths is down 1.6%. The rolling 7 day daily average for deaths is 8.6 today.

I see a lot of reason for optimism here. Cases have been rising fairly dramatically for the past three weeks, but it appears hospitalizations have remained nearly flat. Of course there are lags (so I checked your numbers from last month as well), but it does point to the benefit of the vaccination strategy of focusing on the most at-risk first and gives hope that the UK’s top-notch vaccination program will contain the current flare-up

VickiSoCal Jun 13, 2021 7:08 am

Daughter (22) was in and out at the Waitrose corporate leisure center in 15 minutes. First Pfizer done! Her flatmate drove her and asked if they had a spare and was told no. She is also 22 but registered with GP at her childhood home further south and has not gotten called in yet.

JEM_NYC Jun 13, 2021 8:58 am


Originally Posted by Kgmm77 (Post 33322732)
I agree with the comments above. Context has been lost in all of this. The “lockdown extended” narrative is utterly misleading, the U.K. has substantially less restrictions currently than most other developed countries. The vaccination headstart over other countries (which probably has saved thousands of lives) was always going to be temporary.

The WHO and any immunologist worth their salt has told us consistent things won’t go fully back to “normal” for years. So if that is your expectation you are going to be consistently disappointed and aggravated. As for Boris’ “grand unlocking day”, why, at this point would anyone believe a word he says?

Wasn’t the unlocking day always described as “no earlier than” June 21st? The potential for delays seemed very clear from the start.

cauchy Jun 13, 2021 9:09 am


Originally Posted by Silver Fox (Post 33324790)
University lecturers, unprintable.


Originally Posted by squawk (Post 33324814)
Rather sad that you appear to have so much disdain for university lecturers - as I recall this isn't the first time you've cast aspersions on them. I have some insight into aspects of this, and the underlying insinuation of your posts that lecturers have done f*** all during the pandemic unlike more 'worthy' individuals is pretty far off the mark.

In fairness, the students have had an awful year - they might feel they've basically paid £10k to £30k for a glorified set of Youtube videos. This isn't the fault of rank-and-file academics, especially the junior ones, who really have as much say in university decision-making as the students do. But there are rank-and-file academics who make things difficult for the students - I know of one who is refusing in-person teaching whilst also refusing a vaccine, for example.

The top brass administrators, however, are completely culpable. It might vary from university to university, but those I know say the administration add rules above and beyond the government's rules, and are extremely slow to open things up. It will vary widely, but there will be a fair few university departments that are slashing costs to quietly make a tidy profit out of Covid.

Where it gets interesting is the next academic year - I've heard that quite a few universities will stick with the Youtube model. But I also understand the Home Office will copy the Trump administration and refuse visas for those attending remotely.

squawk Jun 13, 2021 9:54 am


Originally Posted by cauchy (Post 33325074)
In fairness, the students have had an awful year

I agree entirely. I have long felt that the increasing marketisation of the UK higher education sector, especially over the past decade, to be deeply problematic (see also below)


Originally Posted by cauchy (Post 33325074)
But there are rank-and-file academics who make things difficult for the students - I know of one who is refusing in-person teaching whilst also refusing a vaccine, for example.

I wouldn't defend that, but people who are obstructive or difficult exist in any organisation or field - that doesn't mean it is necessarily appropriate to generalise from those individuals. I've occasionally had really crappy interactions with other people in 'customer'-facing roles - train guards, supermarket workers, and hotel/airport/airline staff (sometimes at relatively senior levels). Their behaviour is not representative of all people in that field or organisation.


Originally Posted by cauchy (Post 33325074)
The top brass administrators, however, are completely culpable. It might vary from university to university, but those I know say the administration add rules above and beyond the government's rules, and are extremely slow to open things up. It will vary widely, but there will be a fair few university departments that are slashing costs to quietly make a tidy profit out of Covid.

While I agree with you on aspects of the first part of your complaint (and have a very dim view of many senior university leaders, for all sorts of reasons) this is a structural problem that is largely down to the peculiar nature of the UK higher education system - universities are independent but in reality are tightly constrained in their actual decision-making by 'expectations' from Government and the Office for Students. They are also operating in a marketed system that pits them in competition with each other. This leads to an inherent conservatism - covering their a**e with all sorts of Covid security theatre, for example - and a reluctance to do anything that would incur the wrath of Government.

I have been in a room where a Vice Chancellor acknowledged they probably shouldn't have reopened last September, but made it very clear that this was an expectation from Government - and that if they had told students to stay home and there hadn't been another wave, they were fully expecting to be inundated with complaints and demands for refunds that would have been upheld by OfS.

All of this is getting a bit far from the topic at hand, but I hope it is helpful context to my earlier post. Looking to the future, and back on topic, if extended restrictions beyond 21st June enable vaccinations to exceed the rise in Delta - and thereby lead to a swifter return to normality (including schools and universities) in September, I'm all for it. That should of course be accompanied by rapid and meaningful financial support for businesses and individuals who can't work from home, as it should have been throughout.

DaveS Jun 13, 2021 11:10 am

Daily data:

Cases 7,490 (5,341 last Sunday)
Deaths 8 (4)
People vaccinated up to and including 12 June 2021:
First dose: 41,551,201
Second dose: 29,792,658

The rolling seven day daily average for cases is now up 49.3% on the previous week and the same measure for deaths is up 8.5%. The rolling 7 day daily average for deaths is 9.1 today.


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