At this point in these types of threads, someone usually offers the suggestion of tranquilization either through liberal application of gravol and/or prescription medication, so I thought I'd do the honours.

PT travel, I could not have said it better myself!

Most airlines have nylon zip ties onboard.

On a flight DTW-DFW last night, there were a couple of UM's in FC (I'm pretty sure that the FAs upgraded them). One was fine, the other would constantly pull the pocket in the seatback out and let go. No problem the first 20 times, but after that, it got a bit much.

I exercised my mean old man stare, and he stopped after a couple of minutes.

As I said, it's not my problem, nor my responsibility to offer solutions. I can only observe that, in my experience, seat-kicking is confined to a very, very small minority of traveling children so, apparently, solutions exist and are not uncommon.

On this we agree.

Oh, please. Obviously, if I see a child being endangered or being hurt, I'm going to do something (just as I would for an adult). However, that doesn't mean that I have to tolerate seat-kicking on aircraft anymore than I have to tolerate inappropriate behavior by anyone anywhere. By your paradigm, young children should be permitted to disturb patrons in theaters and fine restaurants, should be allowed to vandalize art museums, etc., all because "children are allowed out of the house."

And as I expect when I fly. The norm is "children don't kick the back of the seat in front of them." The ones that do are the exception (and, in my experience, the very rare exception). That informs my expectation and, among other things, defines the standard for appropriate behavior.

Your only non-tongue-in-cheek suggested fix was that the rest of us grin-and-bear-it when a kid kicks our seat. Nope, sorry -- I won't accept that. Because children are children, their parents are responsible for their behavior in public. I really don't care what you do, but saying, "well, I'm doing my best -- sorry if I can't stop my child from doing a pile-driver imitation on your seat," isn't sufficient. If, for whatever reason, you can't stop your child from kicking the seat in front, either book bulkheads or fly in F, so that no one is subjected to the imposition, or don't fly. However, as I've noted, it seems that the overwhelming majority of kids have no trouble negotiating a flight without making life miserable for the person seated in front of them.

When you have special needs, whether it is because you're traveling with children, are a COS, are flying-phobic, or whatever, ensuring that those needs get met is your problem. It's not the problem of other passengers who happen to be on the same flight -- you don't get to impose on strangers solely because you have special needs that, for whatever reason, haven't been met by the airline.

Again, not my problem. I'm not sure what seat-kicking has to do with being demon spawn, but I'm simply not interested. Don't let your kid kick the back of my seat. Period.

And note, please, that I'm not talking about occasional contact which is inevitable in tight seat pitch. In my book, kids get just as much slack in that regard as any other passenger.

It doesn't matter to me whether a child doesn't kick because the child either (1) isn't inclined to do so, (2) has learned from his parent that he shouldn't so, (3) has his shoe-laces tied to the seat, or (4) is convinced he will burn in hell if he does. I'm not concerned with what the parent is doing and, as long as it doesn't impose on me, I'm not concerned with what the child is doing either. Repeated and on-going kicking, whether or not corrected by the parent, is unacceptable. Telling me that I have to accept it because we live in a society in which "children are allowed out in public" is an entitlement demand.

I didn't give you my complete paradigm, which is: Passengers should not impose on other passengers absent a compelling reason to those being imposed upon. I'll tolerate quite a bit if there's a reason for it that I find compelling. Sympathy for someone who has lost a spouse or child is a pretty compelling reason in my book. "My kid can't sit still," however, is not. Imposition is no different than asking for a favor -- something to grant or withhold by the person who is being asked, based on their evaluation of the request.

How is this, in any way, about control of the environment? I can't control turbulence or air traffic. However, that doesn't mean that I have to accept impositions by other passengers that, by any measure of civil behavior, are intrusive, rude and discourteous.

That's not my view at all. I have no idea whether or how parents can stop inappropriate behavior. I do know that, with respect to seat-kicking, parents can choose to book bulkheads, fly in first class, or not fly with their child at all. As I said, it really makes no difference to me. Just don't kick my seat.

Perhaps so, but I find it interesting that, when these "kids on planes" threads start up, a common response from parents is, "well adults do annoying things, too." That's a complete non sequitur and, apparently, you agree.

Thank you for making my point. No matter what I do people like you will never be satisfied.
BTW I've never been on a flight where my seat hasn't been kicked whether by an adult or by a child at some point during the flight. Some contact is inevitable, keeping it to a minimum is the goal. I attempted to do that and was pretty sure I succeeded, seems that when some people see kids on a plane the red mist descends. You are obviously one of those people. Bad luck I suppose.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

First, you missed this:

As well as this:

Of course, in your world, anyone who objects to any behavior by your child, regardless of how outrageous, annoying and inappropriate, is a child-hater, right? Understand this: it's the parents that I blame, not the children, and, thank god, it's not all parents. It is, however, parents who, like you, respond to any complaint with, "But he's just a child! I'm doing my best! It's so hard!"

Book a bulkhead seat. Buy first class. Don't fly with your kid.

I don't care what you do, but it is incredibly rude, selfish and entitlement-demanding to allow your kid to kick the seat in front of him, "quite often," as you've admitted.

Only when you choose to ignore what I've said about normally being able to remove the child from the situation. I've carried my daughter out of more than one store/restaurant when she wasn't acting as she should and I'm by no means certain that the lesson has fully sunk in yet.

So we've moved from occassional kicking of the seat to pile-driving? Quite a difference between those two behaviors in my mind. The latter infers an unbelted child slamming into your seat, probably with a running start, or at the very least a kick delivered with deliberate force intended to anger the PAX in front.

I thought we were talking about foot contact made due to inattention, not deliberate acts. If my daughter deliberately kicked seats, then we wouldn't fly, except in cases where it was absolutely required.

And just how many bulkhead seats are there to book? And how many of those are even made available to non-elite flyers? Never mind... "not my problem."

As for fly in F, right, then the .....ing and moaning starts about kids in F.

Don't fly... to, say, India from the US? Child doesn't get to meet his/her elderly grandparents, who can't fly due to health reasons? Quite the limitation in the 21st century, global economy.

I really only think we're debating the limits of the undesired behavior... when does occassional contact - whether inadvertant or due to inattention, but with correction - escalate from acceptable, or least tolerable, to miserable?

Looks like we have the answer... it's never acceptable for a foot to contact a seat. Doesn't seem to matter if the parent stops the behavior or not based on this quote.

No, it's a request for tolerance of the fact that sometimes, despite the parents' attempts, children act up. Learning is a process, it usually takes more than one iteration for someone to "get it," kids included. Hence, I would not take my child on a long-haul flight without having worked through some of the "kinks" on shorter flights, preferrably on low-density flights (do any of those even exist these days?).

I doubt my daughter will see a flight longer than 3 hours (scheduled) before she's logged 50-100K miles. Even our trip to west coast had a stop so that we could all have a break from the tin can.

The environment includes... seat pitch, ergonomics, other PAX, airline personnel, etc. How can those be totally excluded from the discussion?

That's why I threw it in... my sarcastic humor at work.

My mother-in-law attempted that with a couple children she was helping another relative bring to their new home from an orphanage in Romania... seems Benedryl sometimes has the opposite effect from that intended. Instead of sleepy children on a TATL flight they had wired, cranky kids.

On a serious note though, unless a prescription was written for the child(ren), giving it to them is 1) a violation of US federal law (and probably many other countries laws too) and 2) potentially dangerous.

I said nothing of the sort. I said I was constantly reminding him to watch the seat in front of him. You see some parenting is reactive and some proactive. Me reminding him constantly to be careful of the seat in front was meant to be prevent him from hitting the seat. When he got up or moved around I said to him "make sure you don't hit/grab/kick the seat" so he would be aware of it before he did it. See how that works there?
On the very few times he did contact the seat I admonished him to be more careful. Therefore I felt the guy's complaining was unjustified and felt I couldn't win.

Fair enough with respect to stores and, perhaps, restaurants. Not acceptable in theaters -- the damage has already been done. However, we digress.

I've said, several times now, that I'm not talking about occasional contact which is inevitable in tight seat pitch. I'll say it again: in that regard, kids get as much slack as any other passenger.

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the kid who, swinging his legs back and forth, repeatedly and repetitively kicks the seat in front of him -- something that adults don't do and something that is completely unacceptable.

I don't know why some kids swing their feet. Most, apparently, do not.

Exactly right! That's no different from a Customer of Size who says, "I couldn't get two seats together on this flight, so I'm sitting in my seat and most of your seat as well." Or it's no different than if I, who am slightly flying-phobic, couldn't book my window seat (which I need for my own peace of mind), so I simply took someone else's. After all, what was I to do? Other passengers should have a little more tolerance, right?

You, the COS and I all have special needs. It is our responsibility to ensure that they are met. It is our problem, and not the problem of other pax on the flight. If I can't get a window seat, I take a different flight, and sometimes a different airline. If you can't get a bulkhead or F, then don't fly if the only alternative is your child annoying the person seated in front of her.

.....ing and moaning is not your problem -- if someone moans at the mere sight of your child, they are being rude and inconsiderate. If your child is behaving appropriately, no one should moan. I'd observe, only, that the fact that some people do moan, and without provocation, reflects their past experience flying around children.

As I said, it's not my problem any more than it is your problem if I'm flying, for example, to an important meeting, or to a critical job interview, or with a migraine, or whatever. The difference, though, is that I'm not interfering with you, whereas you are interfering with me.

Perhaps. The post to which I originally replied indicated that the conduct occurred "quite often." That's not occasional. As for whether it is inadvertent or deliberate, I don't care. As for whether it is corrected or not, I don't care. If it's occurring "quite often," it's intrusive, annoying and unacceptable.

Once again, in tight seat pitch, occasional contact with the seat in front is inevitable, and children get just as much slack in this regard as any other passenger. As for whether the parent attempts to stop the behavior (or, as in the case of the post to which I originally replied, "corrects" the behavior "quite often"), that's right -- it doesn't matter to me if the behavior persists.


Sorry, but I disagree completely. I'm completely disinterested in how kids learn if I am to be made an unwilling participant in the lesson. Parents don't get a special license that allows them to impose on others. Your interest in flying does not trump my own. As I said, you have no idea why I'm flying -- my personal reasons are just as important to me as your personal reasons are to you. I don't ask for your "tolerance," because I don't need to -- I'm not imposing on you. If you're not imposing on me, we'll get along fine -- no tolerance is required by either party.

Also, please note your phrasing: you called it a, "request for tolerance." A request is just that -- a petition for a favor. However, I don't think that's how you're using the word, "request." You're not really requesting. Yours is, essentially, a demand that I put up with intrusive and annoying behavior as a matter of right -- that is the very essence of entitlement.

Then you are acting considerately, and wouldn't be the subject of my displeasure. As I said, the overwhelming majority of children (and that should probably read, "parents of children") are fine and don't cause any problems for other passengers.

Because the one thing you have control over is whether your child flies and where you sit. That's like saying that theaters are quiet places and no one can control the environment so no one should object if a child talks or cries during a performance.

Okay, but I'll also reference the author of the post to which I originally replied, who has decided that anyone who objects to a child kicking their seat must be a child-hater. That's non sequitur #2 in these threads (number 3 is, "you're not a parent, and it's a good thing, too.").

What you said was this: "I was watching him and admonishing him whenever he accidentally kicked the seat in front. . . I apologised, despite knowing that he wasn't kicking "all the way" and mentioned to the man that I had been telling him quite often to watch out for the seat in front." If I misunderstood you, I apologize, but you'll see where I got the impression that your child was persistently kicking.

The kicking started before we left Providence, RI on our way to ATL. When the plane leveled off I turned in my seat and gave the little girl (between 4 & 7) a nasty look, which I let her mother see. Needless to say the mother had a few words with the daughter, and an apology to me, and the kicking stopped.

Funniest experience with kids was from Key West, Fl, when a member of our convention group and his family were seated behind me. The daughter was singing and her mother was mortified. I found it humorous and remind the mother of it every time we meet.

Singing is OK, kicking is not.

I have a family member who was sarcastic and indifferent to a passenger who asked her to stop her son from kicking his seat. I wasn't on that flight, but when she relayed the story to me, I surprised her by saying how wrong she was and how the other guy was in the right. Parents have an absolute responsibility to do everything in their power to keep their kids from acting out on an airplane.

I would start with the parent and then escalate to the FA if for no other reason than to hope that embarassment may motivate the parent more than my admonishment.

I guess it depends on what song, and quality of singing is quite important as well. I think I will get quite tired of William Hung singing, "She Bangs" the whole trip.

I believe you misread the OP, you focused on the comment by the other PAX and the OP's response to that PAX instead of on the first paragraph of the post.

That's about 1 of 10 variations on its definition, yes.

I don't agree, but I think we both already know that.

I'll grant you the first, but the latter is at the whim of the airline. Seat assignments are not guaranteed and can be changed for any reason.

I don't agree. The major difference is the ability to apologize and get the heck out of there, which can't be accomplished on an airplane. The environment of an airplane is such that you're locked in once that door closes and no one gets off until you get to the end point, with very rare exceptions.

No... he didn't say that objecting to seat kicking equaled child-hating, you introduced that term. He was referencing his description of the events, and his clarification, stating that he had repeatedly reminded his son not to kick/make contact and then reinforced that if his son did make contact with the seat. Your blinders seem to have gone up early and you haven't let them down.