Originally Posted by
jefrank
Only when you choose to ignore what I've said about normally being able to remove the child from the situation. I've carried my daughter out of more than one store/restaurant when she wasn't acting as she should and I'm by no means certain that the lesson has fully sunk in yet.
Fair enough with respect to stores and, perhaps, restaurants. Not acceptable in theaters -- the damage has already been done. However, we digress.
So we've moved from occassional kicking of the seat to pile-driving?
I've said, several times now, that I'm not talking about occasional contact which is inevitable in tight seat pitch. I'll say it again: in that regard, kids get as much slack as any other passenger.
Quite a difference between those two behaviors in my mind. The latter infers an unbelted child slamming into your seat, probably with a running start, or at the very least a kick delivered with deliberate force intended to anger the PAX in front.
No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the kid who, swinging his legs back and forth, repeatedly and repetitively kicks the seat in front of him -- something that adults don't do and something that is completely unacceptable.
I thought we were talking about foot contact made due to inattention, not deliberate acts. If my daughter deliberately kicked seats, then we wouldn't fly, except in cases where it was absolutely required.
I don't know why some kids swing their feet. Most, apparently, do not.
And just how many bulkhead seats are there to book? And how many of those are even made available to non-elite flyers? Never mind... "not my problem."
Exactly right! That's no different from a Customer of Size who says, "I couldn't get two seats together on this flight, so I'm sitting in my seat and most of your seat as well." Or it's no different than if I, who am slightly flying-phobic, couldn't book my window seat (which I need for my own peace of mind), so I simply took someone else's. After all, what was I to do? Other passengers should have a little more tolerance, right?
You, the COS and I all have special needs. It is
our responsibility to ensure that they are met. It is
our problem, and not the problem of other pax on the flight. If I can't get a window seat, I take a different flight, and sometimes a different airline. If you can't get a bulkhead or F, then don't fly if the only alternative is your child annoying the person seated in front of her.
As for fly in F, right, then the .....ing and moaning starts about kids in F.
.....ing and moaning is not your problem -- if someone moans at the mere sight of your child, they are being rude and inconsiderate. If your child is behaving appropriately, no one should moan. I'd observe, only, that the fact that some people do moan, and without provocation, reflects their past experience flying around children.
Don't fly... to, say, India from the US? Child doesn't get to meet his/her elderly grandparents, who can't fly due to health reasons? Quite the limitation in the 21st century, global economy.
As I said, it's not my problem any more than it is your problem if I'm flying, for example, to an important meeting, or to a critical job interview, or with a migraine, or whatever. The difference, though, is that I'm not interfering with you, whereas you
are interfering with me.
I really only think we're debating the limits of the undesired behavior... when does occassional contact - whether inadvertant or due to inattention, but with correction - escalate from acceptable, or least tolerable, to miserable?
Perhaps. The post to which I originally replied indicated that the conduct occurred "quite often." That's not occasional. As for whether it is inadvertent or deliberate, I don't care. As for whether it is corrected or not, I don't care. If it's occurring "quite often," it's intrusive, annoying and unacceptable.
Looks like we have the answer... it's never acceptable for a foot to contact a seat. Doesn't seem to matter if the parent stops the behavior or not based on this quote.
Once again, in tight seat pitch, occasional contact with the seat in front is inevitable, and children get just as much slack in this regard as any other passenger. As for whether the parent attempts to stop the behavior (or, as in the case of the post to which I originally replied, "corrects" the behavior "quite often"), that's right -- it doesn't matter to me
if the behavior persists.
No, it's a request for tolerance of the fact that sometimes, despite the parents' attempts, children act up. Learning is a process, it usually takes more than one iteration for someone to "get it," kids included. Hence, I would not take my child on a long-haul flight without having worked through some of the "kinks" on shorter flights, preferrably on low-density flights (do any of those even exist these days?).
Sorry, but I disagree completely. I'm completely disinterested in how kids learn if I am to be made an unwilling participant in the lesson. Parents don't get a special license that allows them to impose on others. Your interest in flying does not trump my own. As I said, you have no idea why I'm flying -- my personal reasons are just as important to me as your personal reasons are to you. I don't ask for your "tolerance," because I don't need to -- I'm not imposing on you. If you're not imposing on me, we'll get along fine -- no tolerance is required by either party.
Also, please note your phrasing: you called it a, "request for tolerance." A request is just that -- a petition for a favor. However, I don't think that's how you're using the word, "request." You're not really requesting. Yours is, essentially, a demand that I put up with intrusive and annoying behavior as a matter of right -- that is the very essence of entitlement.
I doubt my daughter will see a flight longer than 3 hours (scheduled) before she's logged 50-100K miles. Even our trip to west coast had a stop so that we could all have a break from the tin can.
Then you are acting considerately, and wouldn't be the subject of my displeasure. As I said, the overwhelming majority of children (and that should probably read, "parents of children") are fine and don't cause any problems for other passengers.
The environment includes... seat pitch, ergonomics, other PAX, airline personnel, etc. How can those be totally excluded from the discussion?
Because the one thing you have control over is whether your child flies and where you sit. That's like saying that theaters are quiet places and no one can control the environment so no one should object if a child talks or cries during a performance.
That's why I threw it in... my sarcastic humor at work.
Okay, but I'll also reference the author of the post to which I originally replied, who has decided that anyone who objects to a child kicking their seat must be a child-hater. That's non sequitur #2 in these threads (number 3 is, "you're not a parent, and it's a good thing, too.").