Originally Posted by
jefrank
No, but you also don't offer any solutions to the problem so I suggested a couple for you. Apparently you agree they were extreme. Glad to see that.
As I said, it's not my problem, nor my responsibility to offer solutions. I can only observe that, in my experience, seat-kicking is confined to a very, very small minority of traveling children so, apparently, solutions exist and are not uncommon.
It wasn't not liking the kicking that makes me think that the PAX was a sarcastic twit, it was the fact that he decided to make an issue of it after the flight when he admitted hearing the father working to correct the situation. If it was really an issue he should have said something long before.
On this we agree.
Being part of a society where children are allowed out of the house makes you an unwilling participant. Of course, you can decide to turn your head when you see a larger child bullying a smaller child... it's not your problem, after all, right?
Oh, please. Obviously, if I see a child being endangered or being hurt, I'm going to do something (just as I would for an adult). However, that doesn't mean that I have to tolerate seat-kicking on aircraft anymore than I have to tolerate inappropriate behavior by anyone anywhere. By your paradigm, young children should be permitted to disturb patrons in theaters and fine restaurants, should be allowed to vandalize art museums, etc., all because "children are allowed out of the house."
And as I expect when I fly. The norm is "children don't kick the back of the seat in front of them." The ones that do are the exception (and, in my experience, the very rare exception). That informs my expectation and, among other things, defines the standard for appropriate behavior.
How did my suggested fixes, become my problem? All of your responses seem to be about making sure we parents understand it's our problem. We get it, we try to handle it, things don't always work out as we want.
Your only non-tongue-in-cheek suggested fix was that the rest of us grin-and-bear-it when a kid kicks our seat. Nope, sorry -- I won't accept that. Because children are children, their parents are responsible for their behavior in public. I really don't care what you do, but saying, "well, I'm doing my best -- sorry if I can't stop my child from doing a pile-driver imitation on your seat," isn't sufficient. If, for whatever reason, you can't stop your child from kicking the seat in front, either book bulkheads or fly in F, so that no one is subjected to the imposition, or don't fly. However, as I've noted, it seems that the overwhelming majority of kids have no trouble negotiating a flight without making life miserable for the person seated in front of them.
When you have special needs, whether it is because you're traveling with children, are a COS, are flying-phobic, or whatever, ensuring that those needs get met
is your problem. It's not the problem of other passengers who happen to be on the same flight -- you don't get to impose on strangers solely because you have special needs that, for whatever reason, haven't been met by the airline.
Parents, for the most part, do the best they can... the little ones don't come with owner's manuals or off switches. Sometimes the sweetest child becomes demon spawn, for whatever reason(s). Most of the time it's possible to remove them from the situation and other people, sometimes it's not.
Again, not my problem. I'm not sure what seat-kicking has to do with being demon spawn, but I'm simply not interested. Don't let your kid kick the back of my seat. Period.
And note, please, that I'm not talking about occasional contact which is inevitable in tight seat pitch. In my book, kids get just as much slack in that regard as any other passenger.
I don't get where you think anything I said was about entitlement. Child kicking (bad), parent stops behavior (good), child starts kicking again (still bad), parent stops it again (still good). I never said that the child was entitled to kick or that the parent was entitled to allow it to happen.
It doesn't matter to me whether a child doesn't kick because the child either (1) isn't inclined to do so, (2) has learned from his parent that he shouldn't so, (3) has his shoe-laces tied to the seat, or (4) is convinced he will burn in hell if he does. I'm not concerned with what the parent is doing and, as long as it doesn't impose on me, I'm not concerned with what the child is doing either. Repeated and on-going kicking, whether or not corrected by the parent, is unacceptable. Telling me that I have to accept it because we live in a society in which "children are allowed out in public" is an entitlement demand.
Does that also apply to the lady crying the whole trip because she lost her husband or child while she was away on business?
I didn't give you my complete paradigm, which is: Passengers should not impose on other passengers absent a compelling reason to those being imposed upon. I'll tolerate quite a bit if there's a reason for it that I find compelling. Sympathy for someone who has lost a spouse or child is a pretty compelling reason in my book. "My kid can't sit still," however, is not. Imposition is no different than asking for a favor -- something to grant or withhold by the person who is being asked, based on their evaluation of the request.
Once you opt to buy a ticket and get on the plane you've taken yourself out of control of the environment. If someone can't handle that loss of control then s/he needs to fly a private charter instead of a common carrier.
How is this, in any way, about control of the environment? I can't control turbulence or air traffic. However, that doesn't mean that I have to accept impositions by other passengers that, by any measure of civil behavior, are intrusive, rude and discourteous.
We don't disagree in the broad picture, it's only in the details and the perspective. Your view is that the parents can always stop the inappropriate behavior and keep it stopped, my view is that it's not always possible to completely stop the behavior without resorting to, possibly, illegal means.
That's not my view at all. I have no idea whether or how parents can stop inappropriate behavior. I do know that, with respect to seat-kicking, parents can choose to book bulkheads, fly in first class, or not fly with their child at all. As I said, it really makes no difference to me. Just don't kick my seat.
Apparently the wink was wasted... it was a joke.
Perhaps so, but I find it interesting that, when these "kids on planes" threads start up, a common response from parents is, "well adults do annoying things, too." That's a complete non sequitur and, apparently, you agree.