WillCAD

Are there any statistics on "air violence"? I.E., how often it occurs and what the causes might be?

My gut feeling is that seat comfort, or the lack thereof, has nothing to do with violent incidents, but things like passenger behavior and alcohol have everything to do with it.

ft101

That would mean regular size people subsidising the larger people - that wouldn't go down well even if was affordable.

WillCAD

The crux of the problem is, what is the definition of "regular size"?

Averages for height and width vary quite a bit among the many ethnic groups and genders around the world. Certainly, we in the US have a growing problem with obesity (no pun intended), but even if you leave that fact out of the mix, you're going to find radically different average heights and shoulder width between the peoples of Europe, Africa, Asia, North America, and South America.

So then, how do you set a world-wide "regular size" that air carriers could use as a guide for choosing their seat width and pitch?

Or should you set multiple "regular sizes" by continent, or maybe even by country? If you set multiples, how should a carrier decide which "regular size" it should use when setting its standard seat width and pitch?

These are difficult questions, and while I certainly want seats big enough to be comfortable for me, I have to acknowledge the carriers' side of the argument as well, which is that they either make seats bigger to accommodate bigger people, and lose money on volume, or they make seats smaller to fit more people on each aircraft, and alienate customers who don't fit in those smaller seats.

I think they're trying to find the happy medium by gradually shrinking the seat size to increase capacity, until they hit a point of diminishing returns where the seats become so small that their bottom lines are affected by customers seeking other transportation options.

That being said, however, I think the US domestic carriers have taken seat shrinkage a little too far, and they're beginning to feel some pushback from their customers. Seats in domestic coach range from 17.0" to 17.8" wide, and pitches range from 30"-32". Having flown a lot of WN's 17.2"x30" seats, I welcome any trend toward widening and deepening the seats on domestic carries, because I can tell you that even people far smaller than me find them uncomfortably cramped, especially on longer flights.

So no, I don't think this is a case of "regular size people" subsidizing the allotted space of larger people; I think this is a case where everyone wants more space, it's simply a more acute need amongst those of us with some extra height and width, regardless of our body mass index.

PV_Premier

I would surmise that the overall stress of the process of flying, to which seat (dis)comfort is a contributing factor, drives bad behavior at least as often as alcohol.

Calliopeflyer

Yes -- there are a lot of components that wind up the stress, starting with the check in procedure, getting through security, and including squeezing uncomfortably into small seats.

ft101

It doesn't matter what terms are used, it still ends up as a subsidy to the larger traveller which will be resented by those not requiring a larger seat.

lloydah

Doesn't that reasoning simply mean that everything diminishes to the smallest possible denominator? There's always going to be someone who's smaller than you (probably) saying they're subsidising your seat.
If all the seats were a decent width the smallest person would have more comfort and the larger sizes would be less uncomfortable. One size seat, one price.

Calliopeflyer

Only if those people are petty and childish. Seriously. I don't resent paying more for seats with more legroom even though I don't need it, just because some people have longer legs than I do.

Rebelyell

I know of know evidence that people have shrunk in size over the last 30 years. When the seats were a reasonable (normal) width up until five or six years ago nobody said the regular people were subsidizing slightly larger ones.

I weigh under 200 pounds most days. I wear Levi's with a 35-inch waist and they are slightly big on me. So I'm slightly overweight, but by no means huge, and in fact I am exactly at the 50th percentile in terms of height and weight for Americans. I find these narrow seats crowded beyond belief. I care not one whit for legroom, I just want a seat sufficient that I don't touch my neighbor and my neighbor doesn't touch me, and I expect this to be offered as the cheapest fare. To offer a "forced-touching" fare is barbaric.

I've pointed out before that the stewardesses have no problem rushing around the cabin forcing people to return their seat backs to the upright position. It would be no problem for them to be required to identify every upright armrest and inquire, "Are you traveling together?" If the answer is no, the they must then say, "I'm sorry, but regulations require that the armrest must be in the "down" position. A $10,000 or $100,000 fine for failure to do this, with compensation to the aggrieved passenger, would ensure that that would not fail to do this more than once or twice.

I saw this idea on another board, but one flyer said he traveled with a very small cutting board that he bought from Wal-mart, I thinkabout eight inches wide and 10 inches or a foot long. It costs a dollar and is quite thin. As soon as he gets on the plane he shoves it in the crack between the seats, perhaps with a little bit sticking out in front, to prevent any encroachment.

ft101

Lets not beat about the bush, we're talking about fat people who have a choice not to be. It's not at all petty or childish to refuse them preferential treatment (or punish the others) for a condition caused by their lack of self discipline. Long legs aren't caused by too many pies.


Where would that fit worldwide?

I know I'm overweight, but can still fit a book/water bottle/cushion beside me on an airplane seat, and when I can I'm in an exit row where the seats are narrower than usual.

Calliopeflyer

[QUOTE=ft101;28150156]Lets not beat about the bush, we're talking about fat people who have a choice not to be. It's not at all petty or childish to refuse them preferential treatment (or punish the others) for a condition caused by their lack of self discipline. Long legs aren't caused by too many pies.

Sure, they have a choice not to be, but that doesn't mean it's a reasonable choice. It's not always caused by too many pies........it could be caused by too little exercise because of a physical impairment. Sure, that person who can't exercise, or maybe even walk more than a few blocks, could eat a third less than the average person would need to in order to maintain an ideal BMI, but is that a fair expectation? (No, all physical impairments are not visible to someone else.) Or simply a person with an efficient metabolism who uses half the fuel of someone else to do the same amount of work, so is expecting them to do twice the exercise or eat half the food just so that you won't think their less entitled to be comfortable a fair expectation?

Maybe it's different with the fat people you know, but I'm fat and I know exactly what I eat and how much I exercise. I rarely ever eat desserts, I rarely ever eat fried foods or creamy sauces (say, 2 or 3 times a year), I go to exercise class regularly and am perfectly capable of walking 5 miles without running out of breath......but I still have a BMI of almost 39. I'm not lazy, I'm not a secret eater, I'm not a dessert-hog, I'm not a fast-food junkie. I live a healthy and moderately active life, and I'm fat.

Nice to meet you.

ft101

Then you're not who I referred to. I'm talking about the ones that do eat fried food, creamy sauce etc etc.

Calliopeflyer

How would you know from looking at them what they eat, how much they exercise, or how healthy they are? Those things aren't visible from the outside.

StartinSanDiego

Moderator Caution: Let's stick to the topic of seating.

Badenoch

Respectfully, I do not care why someone is fat. I don't even care that they are fat. What I care about is that they don't spill over into my seat.

People know what size they are and unless they've never flown before know what size airline seats are. If they can't fit into one without spilling over into mine it would be a mistake for either them or the airline to expect me to meekly put up with it.