Bravo.

I shall stand down.

Actually, that's exactly what is being asked.

Moreover there have been a few bits that were previously free or included at one pricing tier that suddenly now cost extra. ITN goes away roughly the same data shows up on FlightStats. But now there is no free version of KVS since ITN data used to be free. The cost to acquire and present the data to the customer is the same: zero. So why does it cost money now when it didn't two months ago? I know the KVS answer - because the data source changed additional development costs were incurred to scrape the new sites. But since the software is subscription based anyways it isn't like there wasn't real income happening.

I disagree with the business practices being exercised and have no problem sharing that opinion.

Again, I have no problem if well informed customers are making that decision. But when the selling of the product is misleading or obfuscating the reality of what is going on I object to it.

When recommendations for the product are deliberately edited to remove a reference to other tools - something that has absolutely happened - I question the motivation of the folks doing the selling. If you cannot sell and compete legitimately against the competition then make the product more compelling rather than mislead folks.

Thanks for being a KVS Tool member since 2006! ^

Was probably the one with the word arrogance that caught my eye.

I agree. The nature of the posts from the moderator just did not seem to be in the spirit of what Flyertalk is about. The timing of the initial comment seemed opportunistic, especially when the subsequent comments sounded like the moderator has had some prior axe to grind with KVS.

According to www.thefreedictionary.com, a moderator (by definition) "arbitrates or mediates; presides over a meeting or forum." That sounds to me like somebody that should be relatively neutral or impartial. It hasn't felt like that's what's been happening here lately. It would seem to me that a Flyertalk moderator's priority would be to keep the nature of the forum friendly, inviting, and informative. And since Randy Petersen has come out supporting KVS and others, is there any question about KVS's right to be here?

I'd never heard of the Wandering Aramean before, and checked out the site. I really was not impressed.

The KVS Tool is very relevant to the interests of many Flyertalk members. For those that want it, they can pay for it. For those that don't want to pay for it, don't! But respect that some of us do find it a suitable and efficient tool.

It doesn't really matter that much of the information found with the KVS Tool may be available free, scattered about elsewhere; it's that the tool is a one-stop location for efficiently finding this information. And it is supported. In short, it's convenient. Isn't that worth something?

Why does anybody buy a coke or a loaf of bread at 7-Eleven when they could always get a better price at Walmart? Convenience.

What would KVS have done to please you? Put a big footnote to its every feature and say something like: you could get this info for free at so and so website?

When you go to a highend restaurant which charges $300 per person for a tasting menu, should they put a footnote saying you could get these ingredients for $20 at the local market?

Or, as in Sam Drucker's example above, should the price tag at 7-11 show the price at Wal-mart as well?

I know that I originally stated that I would leave this forum, but I must stand up for sbm12's position when you are attacking him/her. I do not think your attacks are fair.

Your comparison to 7-11 vs Walrt is not accurate. The real analogy is: "Walmart is not supposed to advertise here (per FT posting guidelines, nobody should be advertising here unless they pay for an ad), but Walmart has, with over 7,000 posts. 7-11 has no ads here, and 7-11 is free. 7-11 is a little harder to get to, but it's free. Walmart is not free, but is "grandfathered" in because of a clause, and it is allowed to essentially advertise here for free by positing 'kvs available' all over FT."

It's like having a travel agent offer his services on FT. Sure, you can do the search yourself for free, but if you have the travel agent do it, it's much more convenient and easy. It just costs you. Travel agents are banned on FT from advertising their services.

The thing that I find egregiously wrong with this situation is that KVS will constantly go to threads and state, "It's available on KVS," or "KVS shows it's available." Then, he will post multiple links to the KVS website. This is essentially advertising by KVS on other threads all over FT. If he only stayed on this thread, that's fine; but he goes all over FT and essentially "advertises" KVS with these posts (look for yourself; they're almost all about KVS and there are always links to KVS).

By the way, KVS pulled me into this whole mix with his multiple "ads" on other threads that I have been in, constantly posting "KVS shows it's available" on threads that have nothing to do with KVS. Of course, the natural inclination when one sees all these posts is, "What is this KVS thing? Let me look into it." Sure enough, it's a commercial for-profit website....

So sbm12 is pushing the "purity" of FT by calling out the free advertising of KVS, which is the spirit of FT (to be commercial-free). Those who accuse sbm12 of not being in the spirit of FT are missing the big picture of what this moderator is trying to do: calling a spade a spade.

Indeed, I have previously made "contributions" to KVS and used the tool extensively. I no longer pay for it because I found that the support was not to my liking (too much RTFM without even a pointer to actually where in the FM to read) and because I found that I could get access to the same information for free. What really put me over the edge, however, was when certain features that were once included at price X suddenly became only available at price Y. The reason given was the fact that the data source changed. That's fine, but it isn't like KVS is incurring additional costs to get the data from the new source; the information is all free. And it isn't like the "contributions" were a one-time deal. Every subscriber pays regularly. IMO the costs of the additional development to scrape the data from the new source website should have been borne by the developer, not the subscribers. The tone that discussion followed at that time was enough for me to write off the product completely. Not because it doesn't work but because I do not want to support the person behind it. At no point have I claimed that the product is bad or doesn't (generally) work.

As for my status as a moderator, all moderators are members first. Moreover, I am not a moderator in the TravelBuzz! forum. I am speaking as a member only here.

I've never disputed that and have even privately counseled others to that point. I have no problem with KVS posting here and bragging about all the benefits of the product, but the conversation should be open to reasonable dissent where such is offered.

No skin off my back. As you said, if you don't want to use it, don't.

I absolutely do respect that. What I do not respect is misleading comments from the tool's vendor with respect to what it or competing tools offer, where the data comes from or how it is provided to customers.
Nope. But when someone states that the data is free and that he's scraping it and presenting it to users he shouldn't deny that. When the product is mentioned by a rather well respected industry expert on CNN he shouldn't edit the clip to exclude references to any other products and pass it off as the original. When users have questions about where to find something or how to use the tool I'd generally prefer more than an RTFM response.

Read my history in this thread. I actually help people using the tool a LOT. I'm all about making sure folks can find the information they need and being as transparent about it as possible.

I actually appreciate KVS's gestures in helping us locate something with KVS Tool (aka advertising to some others). But I see nothing against the spirit of FT. All the airlines and hotel chains which have representatives on FT do the same thing. And these airlines and hotel chains are all for profit. As long as it is relevant to FTers, I don't think it's against the FT spirit.

Well, if you call that advertising, advertising a personal blog which contains paid banners such as Ads by Google etc should be considered advertising too.

I am not going to defend KVS from these accusations because I really don't know the details. If these accusations were right, you have an axe to grind.
This is okay in that KVS's RTFM response usually mentions which part of the FM to read.
I'm fully aware of that. And I appreciate it.

Well said ^.

His "posts" are essentially advertising--keep that in mind! The other companies on FT are paying FT to advertise--Lufthansa, United, Jet Blue, etc. They pay money to FT to get business. KVS does not. He is advertising in the guise of a post.

I disagree. A free site with advertising is NOT the same thing as a for-profit website that you have to give your credit card number for.

Is the mobile companion site supposed to be working right now? It recognizes my login but gives an error when you do an availibility query. My apologies if this is the wrong location to ask for tech support.

No. I don't mean LH, UA, B6 advertising by paying money to FT. I mean lurkers of the airlines and hotels who contribute by posting on FT. They represent a vested commercial interest too. You can say that they are advertising in the guise of a post as well. An example is thread like this one. One can say it's advertising. But in fact, this is a topic that interests most forum members.

If a substantial number of FTers use this tool, whether it's a paid tool or not, it IS a travel tool. There is nothing wrong discussing it on FT. Yes, you can call it advertising, or whatever, but it is not against FT spirit to discuss it, or even promote it on FT.

No. It's not. But kvstool.com, expertflyer.com, LH.com, UA.com are the same thing to FT.

We're currently in the process of resolving an issue with the MC -- it should be back up and running later on today. This does not affect the main KVS Tool application itself.