How about my opposition doing what has been done to OMNI? What argument are you going to use to discount my views since I dont obviously have 19K posts and at most have 1/2 my posts in OMNI?


If the arguement I was making was about miles and points then I might agree with you. But I'm making the arguement that the Security thread isnt about miles and points yet post-padding is allowed to go on there relatively unchecked. Explain how bashing Kip by calling him an Idiot or a nazi in every possible thread (multiple times usually) is any more productive than what occurs in OMNI (non-game threads aside) and I might be more willing to listen to the otherside. I have asked for an answer to that question for 3 days now yet no one seems to want to answer it...

And for the record I'm a very reasonable person, or at least the people who trust me to adequately manage a multi-billion dollar POM submission think so. Using the reasonable person argument means you have nothing else to argue with and makes me think you are getting desperate to end this quickly so that people will just let it go

:D:D

Why are we using bombs to cut the problem when a surgical scalpel will more than suffice here.

This discussion seems to be yet another example that there are a relatively small group of people with a set of gripes about FT who have decided this motion and its discussion is a good opportunity to land in whatever small punches they can to push forward their agenda. (I am sure that I have my own gripes too, but I don't see what I am going to accomplish here by going into them at this point.)

Since I don't see FT as fundamentally broken -- and because I still do not recognize how this motion's passage would actually direct actual change -- I don't know what is to be gained by this motion's passage or failure. Also, I am left wondering what various parties contributing to this discussion really want.

An interesting idea. I'm more amenable to it then this piecemeal stuff.

Do you want to propose an "unmodest proposal"? ;)

At then end of the day, not counting an OMNI post does nothing to stop anyone from contributing to Flyertalk in whatever forum they want - be it miles, points, CC or OMNI. I sincerely doubt anyone puts more credence into a post just because it counts or not.

The only problem I see here is that some people have a sense of "less worth" for their posts since they occur in OMNI. That is a "self esteem" issue for people and should not be dependent on a post count.

Granted... some people have stopped posting in OMNI since this recent decision was taken, but that was their choice. If they only think they add value when they get a post count, that is unfortunate. I get no post count credit for Coupon Connection posts, I make many there, and never think twice about it. You have not seen the masses from Coupon Connection (and there are some that live there just like people live in OMNI!) complain that their posts do not count. Granted they do not post as often in CC (we enforce a no bumping less than 48 hour clause).

Count me as one that hopes this proposal fails or if it succeeds that Randy does not accept it. I think we should have the same rules for the forums that require time/posts for entry and Randy has made that consistent.

Well said, wharvey. I do think people will continue to post in OMNI, myself included. I just find the whole thing disappointing.

My only gripe with FT is that something appears to be happening to OMNI that should be happening to other forums here too. Removing OMNI post counts but not doing the same for the other forums that are not directly related to Miles/Points (which is what the latest argument I have heard is based around) screams serious double standard to me.

And all I want is a rule that actually makes sense not one that is being pushed because some of the older FTs are pushing because they achieved high post counts and others gamed the system to join them (which is what I see as the current issue that the anti-OMNI crowd doing right now.)

Im against post-padding but truly believe there is a much better way to come to a solution that works for all than what has been enacted recently.

And FWIW I dont see many people posting on either side of the argument that werent in the same discussion 6 months ago...

GUWonder asks:

I, for one, want to hear some real, specific, concrete reasons why FlyerTalk would be better off without OMNI posts counting. Real, specific reasons do not include "It is better for FT" or "OMNI is an off-topic cesspool" or "Randy has done the right thing".

My interest is in hearing why you personally think removing OMNI post counts will make FT a better place.

The most real answer I have heard yet, and I can't remember who said it, was something to the effect that the poster had worked hard to earn his/her post count by making serious contributions to FlyerTalk, and didn't think it was fair for other people to achieve an equal, or greater post count by playing games.

Not being a member of the "mine is bigger, faster, better" crowd, I don't necessarily see how "who has the most" makes any difference, but that person's post did come through sounding very much like it was exactly what he/she in their heart of hearts truly believed. That impressed me.

That kind of single mindedness and inability to consider opposing views doesn't impress me, it scares me. Count posts, don't count posts, who cares? :rolleyes:

I care because the issue is on the table. As a TalkBoard member, I really feel that I have to care about, and listen to the concerns of the community at large.

So, tcook052, since I am an equal opportunity listener, what do you, in your heart of hearts think/feel about the value of OMNI post counts?

This issue is giving my heart of hearts heartburn. BTW, here's my two cents on this matter:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showp...&postcount=352

For the record, "I'm against the proposal."

Indeed, this has gotten me so concerned that I am going to drive about 50 miles to Har Megiddo (known in English as Armeggedon) to see if there is any unusual activity in the area which could portend the End of Days.

A little more seriously, I think some history should be recounted at this point.

ClueByFour made his initial "Modest Proposal" calling for all posts not in Points and Miles Forums not to be counted.

My first reaction (and I believe that I posted it in that thread) was that while I tend to agree I do not see it as being a very important matter and I had no intention of being the one to raise the issue on the private TB Forum.

What changed my mind? Simply put -- the number of posts made, both for and against it. I decided that if the membership was showing that much interest, it deserves an answer.

I read the various posts, listened to what other TB members said, and decided that the arguments in favor of not counting the posts were more convincing. (Admittedly, this might have been impacted by my own initial views.)

TB batted the issue around for a while. Various ideas were discussed. I could see that there was no chance of getting approval for not counting posts in all non-P&M forums so I took what I considered the next best option and made the motion to not count Omni posts (and to make that retroactive).

Indeed, the one suggestion that was made on the private TB Forum that I refused to accept was to not count future Omni posts but to allow those from the past to be counted. I could not see, and still not do see, the benefit in that when it comes to judging a person's reliability on Points and Miles issues.

As that is what Randy recently decided to do, I can not say that I am satisified with that decision. Perhaps -- and just perhaps -- if TB decides to recommend that the posts not be counted on a retroactive basis, and possibly to include the other non-P&M forums/threads, Randy will reconsider and accept that recommendation.

I think that, before any real discussion about counting or not counting posts can occur, the discussion needs to focus on what post counts mean and what--if any--significance they have.

If post counts are meaningless to you (general "you"), then catering to those who find them meaningful and removing them from certain areas shouldn't matter in the slightest.

If post counts are meaningful to you (again, the general "you"), there are two main schools of thought as to why:
1) it shows FT overall activity and contribution, whether it be to a question about miles or "gin v vodka" (my own question in an OMNI thread)
2) it's a way to indirectly, albeit innacurately, measure a posters possible knowledge/experience/"expertise" when it comes to travel-related information

Finding out the majority opinion at FT re: the above is crucial to making the "right" decision. Maybe a well-placed and well-worded public poll--perhaps even limiting voting to members who meet certain join-date and post-count minimums--would give some insight.

If you're a 1, then keeping post counts for everything posted is the logical decision.

If you're a 2, then wiping out post counts (even retroactively) for anything not travel related is logical.

Where travel safety/security posts and the anti-Kip posts are concerned, I think those serve a far greater purpose than nonsense posts in OMNI. While it may seem pointless to some, discussion about the rules and regs imposed upon those who travel (I would think this would apply to everyone here) is important, even if all the whining and complaining and name-calling accomplishes is to open the eyes of unaware travelers.

I think it's a huge stretch to compare those posts to the OWOT stuff in OMNI.

"Since I don't see FT as fundamentally broken -- and because I still do not recognize how this motion's passage would actually direct actual change -- I don't know what is to be gained by this motion's passage or failure." So I am with you in being "against the proposal".

A number of FTers have already given their reasons why OMNI posts shouldn't count.

Rightly or wrongly some (most?) newer FTers do equate post count with travel knowledge. If post counts more accurately reflected posting about travel then that is a good thing. Sure it will not be perfect - no system is. But not counting OMNI (and CC) is a very simple way to improve on the old post count.

I don't think OMNI posts should count. I'm not anti-OMNI as some would characterise me. Heck I post enough there and should post count be adjusted retroactively (as it was once before on the WWBTNFTMTP thread) I'll be impacted more than most.