Voting Completed - Motion Failed: Include OMNI posts in Post Counts
 

Moved by kokonutz and seconded by Punki

"that the Talkboard recommend that Randy reconsider his decision to implement the policy of not counting posts in OMNI toward post totals and instead count OMNI posts in a poster's post count."

This poll will close on Feb 29, 08 at 5:10 am (EDT)

This motion shows that my two votes in the past TB election (other than the misguided one for myself) were votes well cast. Bravo, koko and Punki.

I urge two things:

1. That all members of the Talkboard vote against this.

2. In the unlikely and sorry event that this passes, that Randy continue to ignore it.

It does ask a larger question however--I'm curious why, knowing how Randy feels on the subject that koko and Punki decided to do this anyway? Anyone remember "A Few Good Men?"

I support Randy's non-counting of posts in OMNI, and personally wish, as proposed here that posts in any non-mile/point related forum not count.

I was still awaiting a new arument against this that was not made a year ago.

Further, I read the position of the FT Board (as stated before the election) and it looks like this is going no where.

What else that was turned down last year is the TB going to reinvent?

As I said in another post, sometimes, when you have nothing to do, it's OK to do nothing.

The sad reality is this mess, much like last year are centered around two threads, count up and down from 100K. Why doesn't the TB have the courage to admit that and focus instead on those two threads?

Randy made a decision. I really don't think he needs TB to ask him to change his mind. Perhaps if the motion had been to make an OMNI games forum where posts don't count and allow regular OMNI posts to count I could see a reason to ask him to consider this. Otherwise :td::td::td::td:

I'd suggest you put a new motion on the table to create an OMNI Games Forum (my preference would be non-counting) to go along with this motion.

Will all the anti-TSA rants in the TS&S forum not count in the future?

I agree with the last post. Miles and Points forums should count. EVERYTHING else should not. Agree?

tom911, would this future feature that Randy mentions in the other thread not be a better way to deal with the WOT threads for those who do not wish to WT?

It would take them out of view, but they'd still count, correct?. I don't think we should give post counts to FTers that use their number counting abilities in a number counting thread to get thousands of posts. What contribution do you make to FT by posting a number 50 or more times a day?

That's the same point of view I held when TalkBoard voted on this in 2007.

I think TalkBoard might have a better shot at restoring OMNI posts counts if they moved the game threads over into a separate area and didn't count them. I'm all for counting posts where FTers type a couple paragraphs on a topic in OMNI, but the number counting threads are just there for pumping up post counts, from my point of view.

I value my post count from years of contributions on the travel side of FT. OMNI is not my home forum. I don't think we should recognize posters who build up the bulk of their posts playing games.

FWIW, IMHO the purpose of the TB is to be a poster-representative advisory board to Randy.

So in my view it is our responsibility to advise Randy.

The purpose of this motion is to advise Randy how we, the body elected to represent the posters, view the implementation that was made with regard to OMNI posts. If the motion passes, I hope that he'll take that into consideration and at least reconsider the implementation if not reverse it.

To me, that's what we were elected to do. Other TB members and posters may feel differently.

I've said plenty on this topic about why I think OMNI posts ought to be counted so I'll let others have their say.

As to an OMNI Games forum, I'd prefer to talk about why that might or might not be a good idea on another thread.

I agree with ClueByFour's 9/18/07 proposal. I applaud koko's leadership, however, the motion to revert back to post counts does not solve the problem (if there really is one), but even worse is the current situation where we have unhappy members and discrimination/ghettoization of OMNI while Lounge, Community, Suggestions, Newsstand, Birthdays, etc. are allowed to count. Randy's recent decision has or will likely cause extra work for Moderators as the post-padders simply scatter to those other forums.

I urge TalkBoard to reject this particular motion and bring Randy a solution that is fair to everyone.

Omni posts no longer count, WOT post or not.

I wouldn't mind having OMNI posts restored (that's what I should have said when I was talking about counting them--if your motion is agreed to by Randy all OMNI posts count), with the caveat that you create a separate OMNI Games forum where the [posts don't count. This is something that neither TalkBoard or Randy has considered before. I just think you have a better chance going to Randy with something like this versus a complete restoration of all OMNI posts (assuming he wants the advice of TalkBoard..from Koko's post it appears he has not asked for it).

So, perhaps it would be better to see how this vote goes before making a proposal for a games/WOT sub-forum in Omni?

Let's say this motion passes, and you go to Randy (who has not asked for input from TalkBoard...correct?), and he elects to not follow the TalkBoard vote. Do you really want to go back again with a revision adding on an OMNI Games Forum (non-counting) and see if he'll count posts in OMNI then?

I think it's best to go in with one single motion that's well thought out up front. As the current motion doesn't address games, I'd rather not see it go to a vote at all and have it withdrawn by the sponsors.

Let me start off by saying I’m undecided on how to vote at this point, so all I can explain is where I’m coming from and hopefully I can be enlightened within the next two weeks.;) I’ll vote based on the issue, and not because of the timing of the proposal compared to Randy making his decision. After all we’re just an advisory committee, so we just tell Randy how we feel and he chooses what to do.

Last year when there was a motion to remove post counts from OMNI it was a very close vote, which, while having a majority, didn’t have a super majority, so ultimately failed. Now we’re at it again, this time with a twist from the other end, as we all know. I don’t have a problem with posts in OMNI counting, per se, but I do have a problem with the violation of TOS that people get away with in OMNI. I’m not talking about mild violations like a post that’s relatively worthless, but rather those that post dozens of times in a row (often just a five digit number), seemingly just trying to pad posts. I think there’s a problem with the system when the TOS prohibit that, yet nothing is done about it because Randy is the only mod in OMNI, and as we know he’s a busy guy. I’m also not a fan of punishing a whole group (those that enjoy OMNI and don’t abuse it) because of the actions of a few.

While this proposal may temporarily solve the complaints in this forum, ORP, and OMNI, it doesn’t solve the bigger issue, which is that FT seems to be split as to whether or not OMNI posts should count. Personally I’m not particularly passionate about this either way. I do think that if OMNI posts count that Coupon Connection posts should count too, and also that there needs to be consequences for blatant violations of the TOS, which there currently don’t seem to be in OMNI. If posts don’t count, OTOH, I can see that we should also eliminate posts from other non-essential forums, but that would get very complicated.

Tom911 raises a good point, one which has been discussed in the private forum. While I think it’s a good idea in general, we once again run into the issue of enforcement. How do you define a game thread? What if someone posts a game thread in the “other OMNI?” Would there have to be mod for this? (and of course this is totally outside the purview of the TB, which adds complexity to the suggestion).

As of now I’m somewhat inclined to vote against it just because I don’t think it’s a permanent solution. While I’m not sure what long term solution is best, I think it’s something we can work on and hopefully come up with.
Just my two cents.:)

Here is what CB4 posted in the linked thread(I'll assume you are referring to his post):

I'll go along with all those he has listed not counting. I will not go along with posts in TS&S not counting as I think there is much useful information to be gained as it applies to travel. I know there are lots of rants there but there are in all the hotel and airline, credit card, etc. forums as well.

I also think Community should count as lots of points and miles are earned attending the events posted and lots spur from fare sales and the like. Birthday threads really don't generate enough posts so I feel they can be overlooked. Post club threads should be moved to OMNI ... just really don't see their purpose anyway.

I pretty much share tom911's view on what post counts should reflect. Knowledge about points, miles and travel in general.

And again, I still think changes should be retroactive :)

I think it's east to start with the two threads that have FTers counting up and down to 100,000, and another one that says "An Omni Game". Any thread with over 1,000 posts, which includes repetitive numbers or one line of text (like "good morning" "I'm going to bed"), repeated throughout the thread, would be my criteria.

But then the games/WOT subforum is moot: no Omni posts count and Ignore Thread allows those not interested not to see the WOT posts

This motion is already on the floor. You would have to get the sponsors to agree to this suggestion. I'm just the liaison.

Without knowing the reason why Randy suddenly decided to change his mind again and reverse his reversal of Nov 2004, there's no way I can form an opinion.

On one hand, I honestly believe that it was the large number of counting threads that bothered him. I know that they started bothering me and I missed some topics (such as a sick child of another poster) because I was wading through all those posts. If I noticed, I can only imagine what people using the "new posts" function thought.

I said it in the other thread, and I'll say it again in this one, IMHO and with limited information, instead of dealing with users he is simply stopped allowing posts in Omni to count. I don't blame him. He's a busy man and is the only mod for Omni.

That said, it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other if they count or not. However, if they are NOT to count, there are plenty of other forums that have OT posts as well as entire forums that are not part of the core Miles & Points forums. They should not count as well.

I know I value the legal advice I received in Omni just as much as the point earning advice I received in the Hyatt forum.

There are a ton of issues with regard to creating an OMNI Games forum. So many that I really do think it deserves to be talked about in its own thread.

- What is a game? (how about the fantasy football threads)
- How about threads talking about and cooperating in the playing of a game (eg, the Airline Mogul thread)?
- What about threads that start as 'regular' omni posts but end up as games (eg, the 'how do you folks get so many posts' thread)?

There are many others. Please, this is not an invitation to engage debate on these questions. It is an argument that this is a completely separate issue deserving to be discussed in a totally separate thread.

The question here is whether the TB wants to advise Randy to un-do the recent implementation of the decision made in 2004 to not count OMNI posts toward the post count total. :)

I agree with the motion to include OMNI posts in post counts that was made by kokonutz and seconded by Punki.

Well it comes down to a couple of reasons.

There has been arguments in past debates, and I am sure they will occur again, that people use the post count as a measure of how much experience they have on a given topic.

I have been a member of too many different forums to count on a wide variety of topics since I first logged onto the Internet many years ago. It has been my experience, is that if you spend any time at all on any forum you quickly learn who are the knowledgable people on that topic, and which ones are full of themselves, regardless of how many posts they actually have.

FlyerTalk is a very diverse community, full of a wide array of people each of which have different opinions and positions on just about everything. We have some people who post a lot on the USAir forum, others on the Delta forum, others on the CommunityBuzz, and believe it or not we even have people who post alot on OMNI :)

Part of being a community is to help ensure that there is a thread that binds us all together. For many of this, it is the love of travel. Others, it might be a good debate on the merits or faults of the TSA or it might involve the "Lost" 2008 season and the affect of the writer's strike will have on it.

The post count helps unify the community as a whole because it provides a record of how active you have been in the community. It means nothing else, well it might mean that you have a lot of time to spare if it is really high, but it doesn't mean anything truely important. A community that the only thing that I am reasonably certain about its members is our collective obsession about counting miles and points. :)

Like it or not, OMNI is part of the FT Community. It is like the bar in some back alley on the wrong side of the tracks. Everyone knows it is there, and some people would bulldoze the entire area to get rid of it if they could. Since it is part of the FT Community, why should someone's contribution there not count towards the total?

Well, it has been said that OMNI doesn't advance FT primary mission. Well, maybe that is true, but at the same time you can say that about Only Randy Petersen, Technical Issues, & Suggestions. Their primary focus is not travel related. Their primary focus is something else, in this case helping to improve FT, yet we count those posts because we recognize that there is a benefit to having them and to recognize a member's participation in those areas.

OMNI serves a purpose as well, it is the escape valve for everything else. In the time I have been a member of FT, I have met a number of different people at FT. As much as I hate to admit it, neither them or I can talk about travel 100% of the time. Does that mean I should go somewhere else to talk about the new Star Trek movie?

No, I take the conversation to OMNI where I can talk about it with the people I have meet in the travel forums on FT, so you can see it does serve a purpose and we should continue to recognize their participation in the community.

There is what is known as OMNI Waste of Time games. You know the ones, count down from 100,000, Who Will Be The Next FlyerTalk Member To Post? An OMNI Game...the ones that can be downright annoying at times, but incredibly useful when you are sitting in an airport trying to kill some time. Again, they serve a purpose. Should these posts counts?

I look at these posts as being the OMNI equivalent of the The 6969 post club! and the various Happy Birthday threads in CommunityBuzz. Are they annoying? I think both these type of threads in CommunityBuzz and in OMNI are annoying at times. Do I think that should count towards the post total? I think it would be hypocritical of me to suggest otherwise. Just because I don't like a certain aspect of it, doesn't mean we should through the baby out with the bathwater.

Now that all of that has been said, lets look at this from another stand point. FT is a community whose members can be obsessive about collecting miles and points in a number of different programs. This community is full of people obsessed with counting things. Why wouldn't they transfer this obsession to posts?

I would be interested in understanding why the motion maker and seconder want OMNI posts to count... but did not include Coupon Connection posts to count? IF the argument is that posts in OMNI are as important as any other post, why not the same for Coupon Connection?

What Kind of Post Count Proposal/Motion Do We Like to See?
 

I second and second.

I know for sure this is not the 1st (see a recent example from 12/31/07: here) nor the last time TB goes against Randy's decision/desire/wishes. That's a beauty of democracy. If everybody thinks alike, there will be no fun in our FT world.

However, doesn't our new TB have better proposals or motions to consider, so our FTers' post counts can REALLY carry a meaning (or be improved), instead of focusing on one specific item/forum? Since we already knew where Randy stands on this subject, why not giving him a better thought-through advice from this TB?

I am quoting the above example from Randy's response with some revisions (replacing VX) :

"if this Board wanted to really make an impact, why focus on OMNI post count, why not for the sake of the future of FT, take the time and examine what measures might be implemented for actually determining what post counts in FT fora should be or mean?"

I expect our TB to be less tunnel-visioned. I urge this TB to take a bolder move: table this current proposal/voting/motion.

If our TB insists putting post counts on the table, what about a better put-together proposal/motion, such as the following one? Can this TB put things in a broader perspective on post counts per se?
Come on! I know you guys can do better than your current one.

May I ask a question?
 

Hi:

Is there enough room on the "Post Count" line to change the count so it shows up in two parts?

Instead of ...
Oldandslow
Post Count 200 ...

could it be ...
Oldandslow
Post Count (M/P) 199
Post Count (all else) 1

If the Miles and Points count is high, I might believe the person knows what he's talking about (not necessarily, of course, but possibly.)
If the All Else count is high, I might believe the person has a lot of free time on their hands.

Does this accomplish what everyone wants? Post count totals are visible, signal-to-noise ratios are visible, and that transparency might cut down on some of the WOT threads.

Just curious if discssion of this approach has come up before ...

Thanks for listening.

If this passes, I am thinking of starting (and doing my best to monopolize) a "count down from 1,000,000,000" thread in Omni.
:) :)

you might have some stiff competition from a member down in Argentina!

I actually nearly mistakenly did include CC as I was making this motion in the private TB forum. But since my intent was simply to put things back to the way they were on February 12, before this 'implementation,' I actually made ANOTHER motion (that Punki eventually seconded) that is now under consideration.

I think there IS a case to be made for counting CC posts in the overall post count. But the point of my motion was that things weren't broken, so why try to fix them. The purpose of my motion was to restore status quo ante. To me, THAT ought to be the jumping-off point for talking about making improvements such as a games subforum or a ignore thread feature or, for that matter, how CC posts should be treated.

Now, let me add BEFORE I start enjoying this large Grey Goose Martini sitting in front of me so I can be at least a little coherent ;): This is Randy's house. He does as he sees fit. And he's done a marvelous job. But I think part of the reason he's done a marvelous job is because he created and entrusted the TalkBoard with the job of representing his community/customers desires to him. And prior TBs have done a terrific job of earning that trust.

The last TB waded through hundreds of posts last year when the proposal was made to not count OMNI posts. In the end a majority but not a super-majority decided that posts should not count. But since by the (imho very wise) rules the TB operates under it takes a super-majority to change the status quo (because, well, if it ain't broke etc. etc. and God knows the last thing we want is a slim majority of radicals on the TB changing things around when things are working just fine), the TB did not advise Randy to NOT count OMNI posts in the post count totals.

So when Randy implemented this policy change from 2004 he did so without the advice of that TB which, to be clear, is ENTIRELY his prerogative. And in a few weeks when TB voting closes on this motion he will have the advice of this TB. Except now the burden has shifted. (Pay attention Clubee :p)Now a super-majority of the TB will be required to advise Randy to go BACK to counting OMNI posts. @:-)

But, again, at the end of the day it's Randy's house and in the end (or even today!) he can restore status quo ante or not. With or without our advice. Completely his call. But at least at that point he will have the advice of the current elected TB. Which is, as I say above as I see it, our job.

Just curious. When was the last time you posted in OMNI?

First I would like to say thank you to wr_schwab for her/his most intelligent and thoughtful responses. I have never seen you post before and must say that I am impressed both by your insight, and with the restraint that holds you to contain your posts to 1/2 post per day. ;) Even restraining myself, I am almost at three posts a day. :eek:

Will you all please note that the actual motion reads:

I seconded the motion because, to me, the wording of the motion invited Randy to enter into dialogue with the TalkBoard to help us better understand his thinking behind the sudden elimination of OMNI post counts right in the middle of our internal debate on the subject.

IMHO, dialogue, interaction, communication and understanding, all the way around (including with and by the TalkBoard, Randy, and the general membership), are crucial to the efficacy of any decisions made by either the TalkBoard, or unilaterally by Randy.

I am not particularly passionate one way or the other about counting post counts, but I am very passionate about the health, growth and development of the FlyerTalk Community. I have been here for a long, long time and witnessed a lot of changes, some good, and some not so very good (even bad), over the years.

As others have mentioned, a knee jerk reaction of eliminating privileges, features, and post counts for everyone, in response to the actions of a few, is not to my mind, the very best solution to any of the problems we encounter as we grow and develop into a serious force for good throughout the world.

I also really try to think in the long term, maybe another 10, 20, 30 or 50 years out, and try to imagine what effects the actions we take today will have on the TalkBoard of the future, and imagine how we can lay a ground work that will well serve FlyerTalk long after Randy and all of the rest of us (except, of course, Lucky9876coins) are gone and forgotten.

Are the actions we take today setting good precedent? Are the actions that Randy takes today setting good precedent? None of us really has a decisive answer to those questions, but as leaders of a very vibrant, exciting and very real international community, these are questions we need to carefully consider before we jump in and make any decisions.

So I personally would very much appreciate any comments that moved beyond post count and politics, and gave feedback on what steps we can take to build a stronger, healthier woldwide community.

Correction. One of us does have (and has already made) a decisive answer: Randy Petersen. That other FTers feel differently is another matter. @:-)

Not to the questions that Punki asked, he doesn't.

I recommend voting against the motion.

Randy gives us extra latitude in OMNI, and we should cheerfully give him extra latitude in moderation in return for what he gives us.

(And thanks for starting yet another thread asking my opinion so I can legally bump my post count by repeating what I have said before in previous threads on this same quesiton. :p )

Punki, let's try some mid or short term thinking here too, OK??

30 or 50 years out we're both going to be six feet south of the grass. :(

Let's suggest working in weeks and months.

Even though it's off-topic, I will answer your question: my last OMNI post was on 1/12/08, but I "stopped by" OMNI just a couple of days ago. I don't always post in OMNI when I stop by.

Like I said in the other thread over the ORP, I am not anti-OMNI. I don't frequent OMNI but I did have the opportunity to participate in Gnopps' Proposal. That was indeed a lovely OMNI thread, showing the true spirit of FT community. That's not the point of THIS thread though. :)

I've read and seen "angry" responses, questioning why counting birthday posts, why counting posts in say fora, why not OMNI...etc. The way I see it would be a consistent and systemwise approach to address the post counts issue. I sincerely hope this TB can think outside the box and really makes a statement on a yet-to-be-seen well-put proposal about post counts in general (IF this TB really insists on presenting a proposal about post counts and advise Randy to "possibly" change his set mind.).

By implication, he has already made -- note the tense -- a call about what's in FTs long-term best interest. To suggest that he did not have precedent-setting in mind back in 2004 amounts to Monday morning quarterbacking (at best). @:-)

Excellent point, Bobster, with emphasis on "cheerfully." ^

I recognize the very real possibility that there could be members of the Talkboard who do not think they should count and would be very happy to leave the current situation as it currently stands.

In a previous post, I have attempted to present the argument as to why they should count. While it is not the exact motion before the floor, it is a possibile outcome should this motion pass. In this post, I will attempt to explain why, even if you don’t think OMNI posts should count should support this motion.

First a little history:

In Aug 2004 the board policy changed so that OMNI posts no longer counted.

By November 2004, it was deliberately changed back to the OMNI posts counting, as confirmed by the FT staff and in December 2004 by Randy, which lasted despite being brought before Talkboard in 2006 & 2007 lasted until February 12, 2008.

On that date we were given the story that this was the correction of a settings glitch and the policy was unilaterally changed. This was done without input from the community. It is the admin staff and the owners purgative if they want to make a unilateral change, since he who owns the gold makes the rules.

It was later discovered that the explanation that was given did not stand up to the facts. This resulted in the board being misled by Randy as to the reasoning behind the change. While I doubt it was his intention to mislead the community, it occurred nonetheless.

I will be more then happy to PM this documentation to anyone that asks. I have posted it enough times in recent threads on this debate that I don't feel the need to post it again here.

As a community we should hold those who have the power to make unilateral decisions to a higher standard. We should not accept (whether intentional or not) misleading explanations from those in a position of power.

By supporting this recommendation, we, as a community are sending the message to him that these types of actions are not acceptable to the community as a whole.

Is this the type of behavior we want to condone from its members, Talkboard, admin staff and the owners? I think not.

The FT community is built in part on trust between its members, Talkboard, the admin staff and its owners. This incident severely strains that trust.

I urge all of the Talkboard members to vote for this proposal. Not because it could restore the post count to OMNI, but because Talkboard must set a precedent that this type of behavior is not acceptable to a community as a whole.

If we fail to send that message, what type of precedent are we setting for the future?

Would it be acceptable if what happened was done to any other forum and this proposal was about any other forum besides OMNI?

If you truly believe the answer to my last question is yes, then you should not vote for the proposal. Otherwise, help set a precedent that the FT community does not condone these types of actions and vote yes to the proposal.

I do believe, Cholula, that my post makes it clear that I am thinking about the big picture--the whole picture. My question is how might the actions we take today affect the long-term development of FlyerTalk?

You are absolutely correct, essxjay, in that Randy has the power to do anything he wants without any input from anyone. My question is not whether or not he has the power, but rather, whether or not making unilateral decisions without soliciting and considering input from the TalkBoard and the membership at large, sets good long-term (even short or mid-term) precedent, upon which we can build a solid, healthy, vital community.

The real issue here is not whether or not OMNI posts count, but instead how we approach and resolve problems that arise within our community, today, tomorrow, a year from now and 20 years from now.

I seconded the motion to open dialogue, in hope that that dialogue woul lead to greater understanding.

excellent point punki. Randy is getting flack for this recent decision, and will likely get flack if he's convinced to reverse it. Hopefully the TB and the community as a whole can come to him with a solution(s), rather than more problems. I believe he's hinted at such a preference already.

I disgree and personally don't agree with your logic.

Randy has made his decision and revalidated that decision. Period. There's no need to turn a simple proposal about post counts into a "all-mighty weapon", as you so suggested. Life is too short, just take it easy.@:-)

I still view FT as Randy's board (maybe not technically, but you all know what I mean. ;) ). He's still the MAN. With all the "historical data" you provided, I thought Randy had responded very nicely to you personally ( I also partially quoted below). Context is very important so people don't miss the forest for the trees. Why not just leave this generous man alone?