I have no interest in social media and don't really understand the concept of what a Like Feature is.
Surely if you agree with something a poster has written you note your approval in a written post.
It takes time to think about what you're writing and the views you're expressing.
And presumably if you're on FT you have the time to do that.
That's the joy of FT.It encourages good argument and the occasional polemic.
Leave Likes to the kids.

LOL!
Unfortunately, if it can't be restricted to only certain forums, then if it is rolled out, it'll be rolled out to OMNI too.

Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't vote for such a rollout unless IB categorically refused to modify the software to allow per-forum enabling of reader feedback. I doubt I would vote for a sitewide rollout in any case, other than a limited duration trial so we could see just how bad the results are in OMNI/PR.

So, rather than ask them to work on improving mobile access, you'll ask them to modify software to allow per-forum enabling? :rolleyes:

nsx, are you saying that you know IB can currently modify the software to flip on this feature on a per-forum basis? It seems the info known about what can and can be done is only dripping out to the FT public, and that doesn't help inspire confidence that the users can make an informed decision when voting on whatever else is bundled in (or intended to be bundled in) with this proposed change.

If there is to be a meaningful trial period that goes beyond the current trial for "likes"/"helpful", then OMNI would be the best place to see the results.

If this "feature" is enabled for the rest of the FT forums, OMNI forums should be included too.

It should, but I think that will be a nightmare!

No. That's part of why I don't expect anything more than a brief test to occur until Autumn or later. The mobile app comes first. Maybe other things too.

I agree that having OMNI/PR as part of a short trial would be informative as a worst case (i.e. the "if you can make it here you can make it anywhere" idea), although the trial might be disruptive to members who use that forum.

So the trial would include OMNI until sometime in September 2015 with no aborting the trial for the OMNI forum while having it run elsewhere on FT?

Again, speaking just for me, I would want any sitewide trial to be limited in time to about 4 weeks. It would end and we could discuss what we learned extensively before deciding anything.

I voted NO, wouldn't like it, then I'll have to think of something intelligent to say and that would hurt my head. :p so no no no no and NO.

"Like/helpful", to avoid a headache.

Now how about you "like/helpful" my post in kind? Or don't you like me/my post even as this post is an example of liking yours/helping to draw attention to it and/or you? See what I've done? If I point to your post in my signature encouraging people to "like"/"helpful" vote for it, would that get a "like"/,helpful" for me too? See what I've done. :D

Seriously, I don't think FT needs this feature enabled unless the idea is to have more grade school-like popularity contests and ego-stroking games going on across FT.

I voted NO, as I think it is a bad idea to turn Flyertalk into a clone of Facebook. That site is already pathetic enough as it is. No need to start copying it.

I voted NO, as I said on my previous post in OMNI/PR, the likes button would only serve as stroking one ego.

The only material benefit I can see for a "Like/Helpful" feature is to eliminate the occasional (and usually short) series of "+1" posts we see. I don't see it as enough of an upside to counterbalance the ego-stroking downside, though.

There is no benefit to adding a like button in my opinion. FT does not need to try to become facebook. Anyone who wants social media bs can find it elsewhere

On social media, likes are used as filters. If you "like" an entity, it is placed higher in your individual like-rank. Entities you never like are therfore lower in rank. The software will then filter what is shown to you, so you will see more of what you like and less of other stuff.

On some news sites, likes and dislikes are used to rate comments. The rating is later used to sort comments (so most liked comments are shown first)
Some sites use the rating as auto-moderation - when the like/dislike quotation falls below a certain number, the post is automatically hidden.

Neither of these usages would be a benefit to FT. Filtering and/or sorting the forum would be a disaster. And for moderation we have moderators.


Exactly this.

And even when you agree with someone, there often is something more to add. So that also drives FT forward, because posts will be added as long as there is anything more to be said (excep in OMNI then, perhaps).

Those who are pro the like have been very vague how it is supposed to work, where it is supposed to be and what benefits the community is getting.
I do want to understand the pro-arguments, and I have tried hard to find situations on FT where a like would really be a benefit. And IMHO it is difficult to find. (except the ^ as you say)

Perhaps in trip-reports, where likes would encourage a poster to keep on doing the hard work of writing. Especially for someone writing their first trip report, or trying out a new writing style. It takes many hours of thinking and writing to do a good trip report, and here I truly think getting likes will help posters to keep on. Also, as a report is a personal view, there is less to debate and a like system wouldn't compete with / kill any discussion.

But that is about it, I can't see any other positive usage of the like button.

Well, it seems that the majority of folks agree with you.

Please, no.

Remember the reputation feature? Anything with a potential to be abused will be, and even without a dislike feature , I suspect someone will figure out a way to abuse this. There are way too many clever people, as well as trolls, around here. I do not consider both remotely similar though there is an overlap.

notifications definitely need to be able to be disabled

but if notifications for PMs cant be disabled...

I'm not sure why this would be any more "grade-school competition-like" then post counts, and weird "posting statuses."

A "like" button would seriously cut down on the "+1" posts or the purely "^" posts, which is really helpful when reading FT on a mobile device or with slow, public WiFi.

Here's what that area of our forum looks like. On FT you'll find the area here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/profi...do=editoptions

There's a radio button to disable likes notifications.

I noted, from reading another thread, that an administration test of the like system has been begun. The 'likes received/given' in one's profile appears similar to that on our forum.

I don't know if IB is going to code anything custom but vBulletin.org has coders and hacks which have provided custom likes systems for the software. Our forum uses a standard hack/plugin which the site owner installed back in late 2011 and it's remained unchanged since.

This is a bad idea.

Sometimes, there's bad content

If you have a way to like a post, you need to have an equivalent way to "unlike" a post. That's the only way the community can truly have input on whether or not content is valuable. People post bad info here all the time. Many times, it's based off personal opinion and not facts. Which is fine, as long as the post is clear that it's an opinion.

Not clear how it will be used

I think there are many ways that having a like/dislike option associated with a post can be valuable. But today, there's no plan mentioned for how this will be used.
Will there be some sort of "award" for the most valuable content in a forum?
Will this be used as criteria for selecting forum mods/ambassadors?
Will there be a way to filter to only see content of a certain level?

Instead, I think it'll be used by people who think these things matter on the internet (the same ones that feel their post count actually matters), and they will be recruiting all of their friends to form a "mutual admiration society" where they all just "Like" each others posts, no matter what the content. I would consider that an abuse of the system. FT would need to have clear policies in place for abuses like this. It will require additional mod time to perform these sorts of investigations.

If you don't have a clear plan in place for how it will be used/abused, then you shouldn't implement it.

There's no clear benefit to FT

There's no mention in this proposal of why FT thinks it is needed, or what value they believe it brings to FT.

Potential for abuse
In addition to the abuse described above, an admin for another forum has posted real-life experience of how it can be abused:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23873665-post111.html

Other options

If you're going to implement some variant of it, I would be in favor of the solution proposed here - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23873665-post111.html. I think there should be additional discussion on what the categories for the voting options would be, but otherwise I agree with all of the advantages/disadvantages described here.

It also NEEDS to be anonymous, or you will have drama.

Every forum that has added/changed this sort of functionality after going without it for years has experienced pain. I encourage you to look at the history of some big boards that have done this, and see what you can learn from their growing pains.

I also "dislike" the idea of having a link to every thread I've "liked" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...-profiles.html.

I purposely edited the content under each sub-title for the sake of brevity only!

True, but there's no requirement of a dislike button. More often than not, when someone disagrees with a post, they post WHY they disagree. Contrast that with the myriad of posts that have nothing more than "+1" or "+100000" (plus the quoted OP since a post must have at least 5 characters)

Facebook doesn't have a dislike button, and while I feel there may be a need somewhat on Facebook, I still believe that there's less of a need here

I don't think there's a need for awards, just as there's no awards today for actually helpful post and/or frequent posters. The award or reward is knowing that you've helped people. Perhaps you can add something (akin to the "FlyerTalk Evangelist") such as "Super Helpful Poster" after he/she gets numerous thanks or likes to their posts. That does give value, and I would argue that that gives significantly more value to other posters than a FT posting title. (Who do you trust more, inherently? A "FlyerTalk Posting Legend" with nothing else, or a measly "FlyerTalk Evangelist" that's also a "Super Helpful Poster?")

Sure there is - it helps significantly cut down clutter AND can in the long-term, if rolled out right, give more value to others by knowing that said poster is really helpful. For example, I know that WineCountryUA is one of the most helpful posters out there on the UA forum. Not only does he/she answer tons of posts, but does so quickly, continues to provide information, and that information is invariably correct. But I am active on said forum.

For someone coming over from a different forum, or a newbie on FT, knowing that WineCountryUA was a "Super Helpful Poster" would help give more weight to said posts.

I'd argue that shows the benefit to a "like" button just the same, if not more so. I agree OMNI/PR could be a problem, but why throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Not sure if intentional or not, but the link posted was the same. Do you mean that the same admin was showing both a potential for abuse and another option, or did you mean to post 2 different links?

I'm not seeing this. Is this something visible to everyone? (Meaning, can I see your like stats?)

I'm ambivalent about this, as there are definetely downsides (on other forums, you see people posting contoversial opinions or pointless attempts at humour just to get "likes").

However, to me the most useful aspect of having a "helpful" (far better term for FT than "like" IMO) button is so that I can later track the posts that I have found helpful. Sometimes you see a very useful piece of advice, which you don't need now but may need later. By flagging it as "helpful", you can then easily search it later from your own profile. This exists on moneysavingexpert.com, which appears to use the same technology as FT. There are a lot of pointless "thanks" on there though.

For me it would be enough if I was the only one who could see which posts I had found helpful, I don't need to see what others have liked, nor is it important to me to see my own posts liked (though I hope they are of some use to others).

I cut your post to address just a few things...

Adding a title like "Super Helpful Poster" will only serve to drive the misuse of a button. Then, you'll have people with that title who don't give correct information.

The "like" button is currently not visible to anyone but TB members, admins, and moderators.

Well said.

1. Wait, you forget that, if by chance this is implemented, the button will be 'helpful'. So why not have a 'non-helpful' button? FTers post incorrect information all the time. I've seen 'likes' given on a BB board to a post that was absolutely incorrect (which is one reason I don't have much faith in the like button). So if information is incorrect, then why not have a 'non-helpful' button so that FTers will know the information isn't helpful? (One reason would be that both like/dislike & helpful/helpful can be gamed - and has been in the past on FT).

You're also making the erroneous assumption that +1, +1000, :-: will go away. That's not the case. People will still post those. Sure, some will use the like but others won't, so the bit about this will suddenly reduce real estate isn't accurate IMO.

2. Just as FTers go for titles (hey, this is a BB that deals with status), some will go for the title of super helpful poster even if they aren't necessarily. It's very easy to game.

I'd recommend you read the titles thread in this forum if you want to know how hot potatoes titles are; the same could be said for at what point of likes is someone considered helpful, mildly helpful, really helpful, super-duper wildly helpful. We don't need additional titles.

I can't speak for others, but what matters to me is the content being posted, not how many likes it has or if someone has a super helpful title or evangalist or legend under their handle.

I don't think it's going to work the way you would like it to (at least in its current format). From those who can see likes currently in their profile, it just has # of likes given/received - NOT where the likes are.

If you find a post particularly helpful one thing you can do is bookmark the post or just copy it into a word doc. I've done both.

1. Agree.

2. Agree. Only only those 3 groups have the ability to give likes as the feature is currently enabled for a trial. However, all FTers have the likes given/received showing in their profiles as evidently that aspect was turned on for everyone.

Cheers.

Do FT members really need FT to have a popularity contest to help them determine for themselves who/what on FT they like or not? I think that most people are capable of judging for theselves without the "crutch"/stick of this popularity contest. Either way, is this "like/helpful" thing really about wanting another scoring and gaming system on FT to publicly rate FTers whom we like or not? It seems designed to do just that.

Are moderators going to be able to strip away "like/helpful/thanks" from a given post/poster? Are moderators going to be able to mask targeted FTers from these "like/helpful/thanks" posting powers? Will people be suspended/banned/disabled for marking "unhelpful" posts as "helpful"?

Not everyone's idea of what or how something is "helpful" is the same, so why or under what circumstances should or will FT members be punished for using this proposed feature?

There are so many unanswered questions and such questionable benefit from this proposed feature being turned on for all of us ordinary FTers that I say this: "don't vote for change which you can't believe".

The title was just as an example.

But how would it be abused? If I mark something as "helpful," that doesn't mean anything for me. The abuse would really be if people agree to "like" your post if you "like" my post. Do you really think that would happen though?

Absolutely, I think there would be a "I'll like your post if you like my post," trade. I see it on other boards where I'm active.

I'll take your word for that - and that's really sad and childish unfortunately

I'm against this button for a number of reasons, but I think this hypothesis is a bit too far fetched.

If a post is especially worthy/helpful - then the topic should be in a Wiki or "Everything You Always Wanted to Know..." thread.

Anything else is just trying to be Facebook or gauge popularity. That is not what FT is about.

Very interesting use case even though it is quite different from the intended function suggested here.
I think this idea should be moved separately. It is a "tag for later reading" or "save to my personal list of interesting things" function. Could be a very useful function, because we all have been there I guess. Remebering seeing a useful post, but not remebering exactly the content or where to find it.

THIS. So totally this.

I think you've identified the nugget of why I've been in favor of this proposal for a very long time.

Why do people post things? Why do they give back to the community? Because people like to know that they're helping people. The people who post helpful answers on FlyerTalk are doing it for the satisfaction of knowing that they are helping people and the reputation in the community that brings.

I think this proposal has the potential to substantially increase the amount of helpful content posted. It has the potential to motivate some of those knowledgeable travelers who have sat on the sidelines of FT to actually take the time to post helpful answers, because now instead of a nebulous "I think I'm helping people," people can actually easily get acknowledgment of their helpful posts and a concrete and specific "thanks" for that content.

I know for sure receiving "helpful" votes would motivate me to make sure I'm posting the best, most comprehensive answers I can and taking the time to post where I might otherwise be lazy and say, "I'll leave it for someone else to answer."

Why do I post on Facebook? I don't actually post very much--an occasional comment on someone's status and a relatively rare status update of my own. But when I do, it feels good to get a lot of "likes." I'm a bit disappointed when something I post that I think is interesting or profound or noteworthy ends up not generating much discussion or many "likes." If something I post goes semi-viral (among my few hundred friends, at least), it feels really good and makes me want to engage even more with them and continue to post interesting content. The same concept applies here.

On a separate note, I just have to chuckle to myself and make the observation that of the several people involved in this debate whom I know personally and are friends with on Facebook, I find it interesting that two who oppose it consist of one person who liberally "likes" literally everything I (and everyone else) posts, even if that person disagrees with it, and one other person who almost never "likes" things I post, even if I think that person agrees with my post or finds its interesting, and the lack of a response from that person sometimes disappoints me (I make it a point to "like" things I find interesting or engaging as a way of showing appreciation for the time they took to post something of interest). I find it a bit odd that the former person is so against this concept considering the use of "likes" on Facebook; the second person's position is less surprising to me although a bit disappointing.

camachinist - good news, thanks!

if there is an assumption that the majority of regular flyertalk users are regularly active on social media, im not sure that is necessarily the case, because there are probably a lot of regular flyertalk users who only joined flyertalk to keep up to date on details on status/awards/travel. also amount of time flyertalk has been around vs growth of social media.

i imagine there are many of us who do not have any interest in having our posts liked.

at least when people send friend requests, i just say i dont use social media. but i will never give likes, because i dont use social media, so some of those who do will apply that (statistical) criteria against me/others in a negative way.

Maybe not kipper's exact way of happening but if you have a system in place, F/t'ers will find a way to game it and what's that old saying-something about those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it?

As implemented on most other forums, this is NOT the intended use of the Like/Helpful button.

What you're looking for can easily be accomplished today, without any changes to FT, by using the Favorites capability in your browser.

It is sad and childish, but there will be people who will try to game any system. This one just has the potential to create a lot of problems.
I've seen it on message boards, and others have pointed out other issues (bolding mine):

But I really don't see the gaming part here. The likes are meant to identify helpful posters. Unlike post padding which people can do to "earn" higher post counts, people can't control their own likes (that they receive).

No one gets brownie points for liking other peoples' posts. It's about the likes they get, which is out of their control, barring writing something good or helpful

I'm not trying to be dense or argumentative - I really think I must be missing something on the downside/potential for abuse