The content free "+<insert number here>" posts will not go away via having a like/enhancement button-reporting the post to the forum's moderators will make the "content-free" posts go away

What makes you say that?

Well for one, some people do like to post pad. Also, some people probably want their agreements public.

As I posted earlier in this thread, I'm against any sort of a like button or like score on FT, although I'm still somewhat open to the possibility of being convinced otherwise.

My impression is that the "likes" system on MilePoint has been seriously detrimental. It's ridiculous when someone posts "hi" and that post immediately receives at least a dozen likes. It's much worse than meaningless as it's resulted in the development of cliques that tend to drive others away from MP. It was fun at first when people were simply positive and encouraging, but then it got out of hand. The problem continued even after Randy Petersen asked folks to stop.

After reading all the feedback I have scaled this proposal back to a very limited trial run. Here's my current working draft:

TalkBoard recommends trial of a per-post reader feedback button labeled "I found this post helpful ^" in the Trip Reports forum in order to give readers a quick way to say "thank you" other than cluttering the forum with a "+1" post.

At this time TalkBoard makes no recommendation for wider use of this or any other positive feedback buttons.

Subject to implementation constraints, TalkBoard would prefer that: (a) only logged in members have the capability to provide feedback, (b) feedback totals be visible to all readers without further clicking, and (c) the handles of the individual voters become visible to all readers via a further click or mouse hovering.

TalkBoard recommends AGAINST implementing any new negative feedback feature anywhere on FlyerTalk.

I'm against the scaled back proposal as well, for the reasons given in this & the other thread. I'm starting to think this is a solution in search of a problem.

I'm also a bit perplexed why TB (although it sounds more like nsx than TB in general) are pushing for something when approximately 50% of the FTers posting are against the idea in both threads.

Implementing this would require a major change to the site according to IB. I'm not sure they'd be interested in a making a major change to the site for a trial run. TB doesn't normally create forums on a trial run capacity; I'm not sure why they would start trial runs with something like this.

Cheers.

It seems like there isn't a strong demand for any implementation, so why insist on this at all?

I agree. Based on what I've read to date, I continue to be against this in any form.

I've actually made this exact point. However, in the spirit of openmindedness (something I've been accused of lacking a lot), I'm willing to see how it would work on a trial run. Maybe it will be incredibly popular and useful to FT as a whole.

I for one am not against someone posting how he or she feels in response to what someone else posted — even if it is a only a ^, a :td:, or a +1.

In my opinion, feedback is a gift. If someone is willing to take the time and effort to post something — whether it is in agreement or in opposition in response to content which was posted by a fellow FlyerTalk member — I find that far more valuable than a “like”; and the person can also express himself or herself in virtually any way he or she chooses.

In viewing the “like” system over at Milepoint — which has been in place for almost four years now — the amount of “likes” the content receives does not sway my opinion about the content of what was “liked”; so I find it to have little value.

After giving this proposal some thought, while I am open to trying out this idea on FlyerTalk and giving it a chance — I could be wrong, after all; and it would not be the first time that has happened — I am not in favor of it for the reason I cited.

^ Agreed

^ Agreed on all points!

Bolding mine: Why did you choose the Trip Reports forum and did you ask the moderators of that forum what they think about the idea? (don't know if the latter is relevant or not but I figured I'd ask anyway)

I actually think the Trip Report forum was a stroke of genius on his choice. It's got a decent, though not overwhelming amount of traffic, and it's a "safe", not controversial choice.

If (n.b. if) there was to be a test forum, I personally would like to see a forum with a heavy amount of traffic as by taking the safe way out, with a forum with a lower amount of traffic you might/might not get a fair and balanced result

In that case, do you have an alternate forum suggestion?

Perhaps one of the airline, hotel forums? Or maybe even the Mileage Run Deals or one of the Travel Safety & Security Forums?

OMNI would be "the" place to test it where it isn't a safe forum. :)

Here's what I posted in the private forum about that:

If the other TalkBoard members would prefer to go directly to the trial by fire, I would support that. I just think working out any glaring problems in Trip Reports first is a safer way to proceed. But you are absolutely correct that we need the trial by fire at some point.

I understand that some people are certain the feature will have no value. What I have trouble understanding is some people also are so sure of their assessment that they oppose a trial to gather more information, information which could surprise all of us.

Well one of my concerns is that the button will make Flyertalk into more of a popularity contest. I think an airline forum might sharpen my fears without showing me the button's usefulness. That seems to be less of an issue in hotel forums and travel safety & security though so I'd be more inclined to start it there.

I'm pretty sure I'm being lumped in here, and now I see why. Upthread, I said that I opposed this in any form. What I meant was that I oppose the reader feedback mechanism in any form. If folks want to implement some kind of "trial" (assuming that it is not cumbersome), I would not object.

While I don't think FT needs any kind of "reader feedback" mechanism, if that's what the overwhelming majority of FTers want, I would not oppose simply because of my own thoughts on the matter.

Would it be possible, perhaps via a site-wide announcement from the CD, to conduct a poll of FT users on whether this feature would be wanted? This thread and the other one are just a very small sample of FT membership.

I am usually in favor of a poll.

While not a perfect mechanism for gauging what members of FlyerTalk want, it does give a quick visual idea on helping to decide how to proceed, in my opinion...

A poll is a good idea.

Bolding mine: Agreed ^ and how does the like/helpful button stay honest? Or in other words, what's to stop someone from liking/helfulling a post "just because they wanted to (or even if the post content is flat out wrong and thus not helpful). What does that do for folks who see a post marked as liked/helpful where it's obviously not helpful?

Assuming members actually participate in the poll and read this (and the "informative button" threads" as opposed to posting "hey, I just noticed this button thingy! When did that happen" ;)

Bolding mine: What I have trouble with is a proposal which folks are hellbent on pushing thru and then lo and behold, there's a lot of opposition to it so let's take the easy way out and try and sneak it in via a back/side or lower traffic door as imho, THAT is taking the easy way out. Now for sake of argument, let's say the trial gets moved, seconded voted on and passed-is there a time limit as to "the trial"*, how do you propose closing the trial because it didn't work, how do you prose to roll it out if the trial succeeds? I personally think that hoemwork should be done by the folks who want to see this happen and not put F/t'ers in as the beta testers**. And as I posed above, how does the like/helpful button stay honest? Or in other words, what's to stop someone from liking/helfulling a post "just because they wanted to (or even if the post content is flat out wrong and thus not helpful). What does that do for folks who see a post marked as liked/helpful where it's obviously not helpful?


*We could ask CMK10 ;)

**COdbaUA has done and is notorious for doing that and some of us know how that works out ;)

How does one decide if the trial is successful or a failure? Who decides that?

Either the community director or the TalkBoard of this year or next. Probably the CD since she has a more complete picture. However the TalkBoard isn't approving expansion until after hearing from the CD and voting on a new proposal.

As to goalie's request for a time limit on the test I don't object to that if the other TalkBoard members prefer it that way.

goalie would you prefer a two phase test or a single trial by fire? I don't mind that two phases will take longer but i suppose there is entertainment value in a quick and spectacular failure. :o

Well I figure we won't really know that until we see the data. How often it's used, how it's used, user response to it etc. We could set up a poll afterwards perhaps.

And btw, to Goalie, one of my suggestions was not allowing people to use the "Like" feature unless they met similar qualifications to posting in OMNI/CC. I figured that might help a little.

As to goalie's other request to set out a rollout plan, that's premature. With images we had plenty of concerns and no such plan. It was step by step as I recall. In that case results were surprisingly trouble-free. I hope for that outcome but nobody knows yet. The current TalkBoard should not pretend it can tie the hands of future TalkBoards or the Community Director who will have better information after any trial.

So in summary ideally it will work like images did. Time will tell.

CMK10 I intend to poll TalkBoard members on each feature and put the most favored features together before voting on anything.

By the way regardless of whether anything happens on this idea I hope this thread serves as a good example of how to take our time developing the best available consensus. That's a large part of why I'm doing this on the public forum almost exclusively. What you see here is very nearly exactly what normally happens in the private forum.

So, you don't have an idea of what qualifies as a success or a failure, nor do you have a metric that will define either? Speaking for the entire TalkBoard about approving or vetoing expansion is a little far-reaching, isn't it?
Again, so you don't have a plan for any of this?

No. Read the working draft. If approved in that form it puts TalkBoard on record as making no recommendation about wider use of reader feedback. In other words I am speaking of a proposal in which TalkBoard will speak for itself.

A TalkBoard member can't even throw out some draft ideas without being accused of trying to force his agenda on the TalkBoard?

...and people wonder why there's a private TalkBoard forum. No wonder some TalkBoard members prefer to hash out the rough ideas in there and then come out here with something more cohesive. It's less painful.

It's one thing to hold your representatives accountable. It's another to pointlessly assail them with pointed arrows.

Even if TB decides that a trial would be worthwhile, i don't think IB has yet indicated whether such functionality can be practically provided, and whether development and implementation would divert resources from other higher priority projects, such as a new mobile app.

It seems the posts are split roughly 50-50, yet we've now seen a revised proposal, pushing this, even though there's not been a large clamoring for it.

I made a similar point--but less eloquently--in the private TalkBoard forum earlier today. It's also not obvious to me (as I said there) that even if the like button is easily feasible, it can be restricted to just a single forum easily.

At this point I have to 'fess up that I have some inside information to indicate that I am not totally wasting your time here. That's about all I can say right now. In addition, I continue to believe that IB can implement almost anything we think up. That's why I don't want our discussion to be constrained to what features might be available off the shelf, as it were.

Look, I'm not much interested in the button either but your stubbornness is surprising to me. What's the harm in trying it in one forum just to see what it's like? I see this as a situation where there's nothing to lose but maybe something to gain.

Well frankly, it takes a lot of stones to say that as that is imo, NOT in the "true spirit of Flyertalk" of sharing information. Either your at liberty to say it or you're not and in the interest of full disclosure and transparency, I think you should or not say anything at all as for me, based on your post, it appears that this whole push for a like/helpful/whatever you want to call it button is all about you and not Flyertalk as a whole.

I find this persuasive. In fact, I think this (the trial) approach could be used even more often on FT.
I am against the button based on personal use of FT and experience of sites that has the button. But for me there is no logic in opposing the trial. I'm sure there are good arguments on where and how to conduct a trial, but I will not argument against a trial as such.



I'd like to ask something completely different. What need is meant to be satisfied with this function? I mean beyond making it easier for expressing "like".

I am asking to find out how far this idea goes. Is there any thoughts beyond the apparent change of the forum by adding this button? When you have gathered the likes of the community, what are your thoughts on how to use that data?

Is the result supposed to merely be subtle guide to certain posts?
Is the result meant to be used in another way? Sort comments by popularity, make top-lists of "most liked posts", diploma of "most liked poster of the year"? Or is it just intended as a instant gratification system to posters?

I mean no distrust in the idea makers, it is just that IRL I've seen too many ideas funded and launched without a clear plan for what they are supposed to do in the long run.

It seems like we're asking IB to do a lot of work for a trial, when there are other, more pressing wants/wishes, like a good mobile app.

Yesterday I posted the following in the private TalkBoard forum:

I'm not sure what we will be justified in inferring from the results of a single trial in a special handpicked forum that we don't think is very typical of FT forums. It sounds to me like the evidence would basically be a single data point that we wouldn't even believe is a representative case.