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Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24001100)
I'm not Steve Jobs, but he proved that sometimes people don't know what they will like until you show it to them and let them use it. A trial will do just that.
That is simply nothing more than my opinion... |
Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24000287)
Thanks for the reassurance that we're not playing Whack-a-Mole here.
We didn't have a detailed road map of the sort you want when we tested allowing images in posts. The fact that the horrible situations we feared never happened was sufficient. Even though only a small minority of members used the new feature, the images they posted had indisputable value. Once it was clear that disaster would not occur, a wider rollout occurred, if I recall correctly, by the Community Director without TalkBoard involvement. Reader feedback is a bit different than images, in that its value is not as obvious. So we have something to demonstrate beyond just avoiding disaster. In my mind, if a feature pleases 10% of our members and doesn't bother the other 90%, it adds value to FlyerTalk. If a feature improves post quality without bothering members, it adds value. If a feature improves post quantity without degrading post quality, it adds value. These are the three ways in which I expect reader feedback to improve FlyerTalk. This is why I want to test it. A member survey could address the question of whether members are aware of the new feature, and if so whether it pleases them, bothers them, or neither. That's an easy one. Improvements in post quality will almost certainly be subtle and essentially invisible. I don't see any way to quantify that, but I'd like to hear any ideas. Increases in post count will also be small, since reader feedback is such a minor change. We could measure post count, but I doubt the numbers would be meaningful. There is also the Hawthorne Effect to consider. I want to make this proposal the best it can be, but there will be limits to our knowledge both before and after any trial. At that point we need to apply our own judgment. That's why TalkBoard exists. A time-limited trial would add information. The only reason not to add information is if one's opinion is immovable no matter what the new information is. I expect that TalkBoard will be able to see how IB's existing reader feedback capability looks soon. That may alleviate some concerns about a trial. Also, what about post quantity? Would you say that more posts are necessarily an "improvement"? On MP, the like feature clearly resulted in a lot of nonsense posts that weren't even fun or amusing in any way, just "hi" and similar wastes of space and people's time. Also on MP, some of the people with many many likes admittedly almost never travel, don't participate in FF or other frequent guest programs, aren't knowledgeable or even trying to learn about airlines, hotels, etc. One wonders why they even joined let alone post on MP but all those likes seem to draw them in for ego gratification or something. It's not helpful to the site other than adding to the counts of members and posts; no information is added either directly or indirectly as a result of all the liking activity. |
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 24001246)
How do you define or measure improvements in post quality? I hope not by the number of likes!
Also, what about post quantity? Would you say that more posts are necessarily an "improvement"? On MP, the like feature clearly resulted in a lot of nonsense posts that weren't even fun or amusing in any way, just "hi" and similar wastes of space and people's time. |
I fear that once we try a test period, it will be difficult to go back. Certain bells cannot be un-rung easily.
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I was in favor of a test forum, but now that that can't be done, I'm hesitant. I don't see much support here and I think the people who are vocal against the idea, are making some really good points. This means a lot to nsx and I think he believes it's in the best interest of Flyertalk. But until we can define what constitutes success and until I really see that people want this, I don't think this should go forward.
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 24001370)
I fear that once we try a test period, it will be difficult to go back. Certain bells cannot be un-rung easily.
This approach would set member expectations consistently with using the trial purely as an information gathering exercise. |
Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24000287)
...
In my mind, if a feature pleases 10% of our members and doesn't bother the other 90%, it adds value to FlyerTalk. If a feature improves post quality without bothering members, it adds value. If a feature improves post quantity without degrading post quality, it adds value. These are the three ways in which I expect reader feedback to improve FlyerTalk. This is why I want to test it. ... a) at least a small minority like it and majority of users are not bothered and the suggested way to do it is by adding a "like" button with the resulting like-count attached to posts and/or a list of members liking the post?and/or b) increased post quantity with post quality unchanged and/or c) increase post quality without bothering members You said that users sometimes does not know what they want until you show it to them. That is very true. But it is also true that users may not know and understand the long term effects of what they are shown. They see only he surface of what you show them. Continuing on the Jobs analogy, when shown new laptops without anti-reflex coating, they users loved the new high contrast displays but didn't understand it would be difficult to use them in a lit setting. When shown the original ipod with polished steel backs they adored the new shiny toy without understanding how easy it was to scratch it. Some things demos very well. It doesn't mean they are certain to add value. One recent example is the new premium deals forum. The major change to the structure has apparent and immediate positive effects and many like what they see. Others are very bothered with it. As for the large majority of members I'd guess they are not bothered with the change as they either never saw it or never used it. By your evaluation this is a success and even though some major issues have been raised, it is clear that TB won't even listen to a remodel/take down call for several months, if ever. My personal view is that quality of posts in that forum have gone down considerably and that the long term effect on the forum, despite all the positive effects, is declining relevance when fewer good deals get posted. If that is what really is happening long term, did that change really add value to FT? This is why I have an issue with the criteria "doesn't bother others". Sure, I am not bothered with the like-button itself. I can overlook it and never click it. But I am bothered with the long term effects. |
Originally Posted by SkiAdcock
(Post 24000972)
Uh wait, what? How about doing a member survey/poll BEFORE you even move forward with this idea to see if FT members really, really want a Like button. The fact that you're pushing this without seeking greater FT input basically says to me that you want it & you're going to get it; doesn't really matter what FTers think.
What do you mean the fact that you personally are pushing this is irrelevant. Of course it's relevant. To imply otherwise is insulting to both FTers and your fellow TB members. If you were a regular FTer asking for this & it had approx 50% against the idea, both among regular FTers & TB members, it wouldn't be moving forward. The fact that you're a TB member & can try to push it through is entirely relevant. BTW - you might want to re-read the guidelines about how TB considers new forums (and I post this for others that might not know). It is not the norm that forums are created with the intention of sunsetting them shortly thereafter (aka, a trial run). That equally applies to this idea. You know that if it goes through the odds of it getting shut down are slim to zip. TB has only shut 3 forums (and one was folded into a larger forum) in its entire 13 year history. Cheers.
Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24001100)
I'm not Steve Jobs, but he proved that sometimes people don't know what they will like until you show it to them and let them use it......
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Originally Posted by goalie
(Post 24002630)
Bolding mine: Remember what Jeff Smisek said about the changes coming to United and that we'd like them? :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by lo2e
(Post 23981604)
Would it be possible, perhaps via a site-wide announcement from the CD, to conduct a poll of FT users on whether this feature would be wanted? This thread and the other one are just a very small sample of FT membership.
Originally Posted by SkiAdcock
(Post 24000972)
Uh wait, what? How about doing a member survey/poll BEFORE you even move forward with this idea to see if FT members really, really want a Like button.
Originally Posted by Canarsie
(Post 23981613)
I am usually in favor of a poll.
While not a perfect mechanism for gauging what members of FlyerTalk want, it does give a quick visual idea on helping to decide how to proceed, in my opinion...
Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 23981637)
A poll is a good idea.
Originally Posted by goalie
(Post 23985692)
Bolding mine: Does this mean that TalkBoard has already decided how to vote on this/is ready to approved this?
... As to the the first part, TalkBoard SHOULD be on on record as to "what comes next" be it shut it down, extend the trial period or close it down-Time to take some responsibility! [/I]*
Originally Posted by SkiAdcock
(Post 23991361)
Agree with both.
And of the folk who have posted in the two threads in this forum, 50% are against having a Like feature yet it seems to be moving forward. Heck, even some of the TB members are against it yet it seems to be moving forward. Neither a poll nor sitewide announcement has been done to garner further input, yet it seems to be moving forward. :(
Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24000761)
On your other point, a negative outcome would be a large positive correlation of the "vote" totals with the snarkiness of posts. That to me would qualify as a disaster. Now that I've said that, I have provided any opponents of low integrity a means to sabotage the trial, but such people don't need me to point out what will be obvious to them.
Another negative outcome would be if members find the feature useless or nearly so and it consumes significant screen space. (I don't yet know whether IB's implementation uses any screen space that is not currently empty.) Another negative outcome would be if posters complain that their good posts are getting no feedback while others' snarky or otherwise deleterious posts are getting positive feedback. I think it's unlikely to be a difficult decision to call the test a success or a failure. Failure will be especially apparent. In the absence of failure, a member survey will tell us the answer. |
I think it's VERY IMPORTANT to consider carefully how any question(s) in a poll will be worded and what alternatative responses will be offered. Carelessly worded polls can give very misleading conclusions.
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Originally Posted by rwoman
(Post 24004903)
Agree a poll is a good start. It seems the perception on how many favor or are against this varies.
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 24006044)
I think it's VERY IMPORTANT to consider carefully how any question(s) in a poll will be worded and what alternatative responses will be offered. Carelessly worded polls can give very misleading conclusions.
What if anything would you like TalkBoard to do about an "I found this post helpful" button or a similar form of reader feedback? 1. Nothing. Reader feedback will not improve FlyerTalk. 2. Experiment with reader feedback for a limited time and/or in selected forums. 3. Just add the button. It will improve FlyerTalk. |
/Mod hat off, merely asking for consideration on a broader basis
There's the other thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkb...-feedback.html), which I'd refer people to, which moots about a somewhat similar feature: a "Helpful post" or like feedback counter, as opposed to what in my opinion is a much more ambiguous and broadly interpreted "Like". Just what does it imply when I "Like" a post? Good, useful information, clearly presented? Great humor? Is this post fun or clever? Do I like this poster? Am I merely "Liking" another's "like" whilst attempting to give further "likeness" to another post? How does a feedback mechanism reflect the purpose and values of FlyerTalk? MP is, IMO, a good reference point for what "Like" might bring. |
I don't normally get into this part of Flyertalk but punched the 'new posts' button, saw this thread and thought I'd share my experiences as a moderator of another forum (different content but on vBulletin) that has used the 'like' button for a couple years.
1. I haven't seen it cut down dramatically, or even a little, on '^^^^^ this!' type responses under full quotes of another post. 2. Our system shows the members who liked a post in a list at the bottom of the post and I've noted this to have become a method where often cliques exert political pressure on postings or threads, where one member of the clique posts up a missile at a fellow member and the others chime in with likes. A system which only shows number of likes and doesn't identify members visibly to other members could mitigate the politics of that somewhat, but not completely. 3. The use of the ignore list, in our software iteration and settings by the site owner, disallows a member from liking the post of another member they have on ignore but allows the ignored member to like their post. This arrangement has also been used to harass members, especially those who have like notifications turned on in their profile. The subject matter is quite different than that of Flyertalk, and perhaps more potentially contentious or inflammatory but, if I had a button to take the like system off our forum today, I'd do it right now. I don't own the site so that won't happen. Good luck in your choices. |
Thanks for weighing in with your experiences and views, carmachinist.
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Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24006177)
Agreed. I'd like to compile a list of alternatives for a poll so we don't exclude anyone's preferred option. Here is a partial list of iterms:
I don't think it's practical to explore opinions on features and functions (e.g., I think we have to set aside any "dislike" button for this poll). But I want to make sure that the poll is complete to maximize its usefulness to TalkBoard. I'd limit the scope of the poll to: Nothing Trial for 1 month (or whatever amount of time), and then reevaluate |
Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 24006460)
I thought it cannot be implemented in only one forum? If that's true, then why would give people the idea that it could be?
I'd limit the scope of the poll to: Nothing Trial for 1 month (or whatever amount of time), and then reevaluate In short, I don't regard the limited scope trial as off the table just because some coding is needed. If it's the right answer we should pursue it. |
Originally Posted by camachinist
(Post 24006261)
The use of the ignore list, in our software iteration and settings by the site owner, disallows a member from liking the post of another member they have on ignore but allows the ignored member to like their post. This arrangement has also been used to harass members, especially those who have like notifications turned on in their profile.
Your experience on abuse of the visible identities of voters is especially helpful. I never would have imagined that one. Apparently even simple reader feedback can be complicated. |
Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24006505)
I intend this week to check out IB's ability and willingness to implement a restriction of the feature to selected forums. To me, a limited time sitewide test would be a distant second choice compared to a test forum or two. If implementing that change is a small job, and if TalkBoard wants to do a limited scope trial, I'd press IB to write the necessary code for us.
In short, I don't regard the limited scope trial as off the table just because some coding is needed. If it's the right answer we should pursue it.
Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 23988528)
I have gotten some information and Carol's permission to share it. IB's existing software has a reader feedback plug-in that apparently only needs to be configured and turned on. Because it already exists, it will not delay other developments, such as the mobile improvements we all crave.
That's the good news. The bad news is that it can be turned on by categories of members (like access to The Coupon Connection or OMNI) but it cannot be enabled or disabled forum by forum. That's disappointing to me. Carol decided on her own (I didn't even think of asking her) to turn this feature on for moderators to get their reactions on how it looks and works in the moderators' private forum. If IB can easily give the same capability to non-moderator TalkBoard members, that would be even better. After getting initial reactions, Carol could proceed on her own to turn the feature on for more users, shut the thing down, or ask TalkBoard for advice. TalkBoard could provide advice on whether an FT-wide trial should take place, its duration, membership requirements (posts and tenure) to use the reader feedback button, the wording of the button, and any other configurable features (of which I do not yet have a list). Since there's no hurry, I think TalkBoard should stand by on these questions until the internal trial occurs. I would have preferred a single-forum public trial, but we will not get that unless someone at IB decides to write some code just for us. I do intend to find out how much effort that would be for them. I will ask permission to share that information with Carol and TalkBoard and our members in this forum. |
Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24006177)
Agreed. I'd like to compile a list of alternatives for a poll so we don't exclude anyone's preferred option. Here is a partial list of iterms:
I don't think it's practical to explore opinions on features and functions (e.g., I think we have to set aside any "dislike" button for this poll). But I want to make sure that the poll is complete to maximize its usefulness to TalkBoard. |
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 24006704)
I would hope that any proposal or poll would make very clear that we absolutely will NOT add a DISLIKE button. FT tried that in the early days and apparently the effects were horrible. In fact, I'd like that commitment before any further consideration.
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Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24006524)
Thank you so much for your informative post, camachinist! Now if I only had an "I found this post Informative" button... :D
... Gather a clique of suporters and have them like your statements. Since most members won't use the feature, a small clique can upvote selected posts to stand out. If my posts all have 50 likes and your posts have just a few, it looks like my opinion is "the right one" and discussion will die down. Even though 50 likes are less than 0,01% of the member base. I have found most posts in this thread to be informative or otherwise interesting. Would FT benefit more from me clicking like on everything I like, or from me engaging in debate on my own credentials? |
Originally Posted by intuition
(Post 24006946)
And right there you just demostrated the potential negative skewing effects of a like system.
Gather a clique of suporters and have them like your statements. But I do understand your point. We don't want upvotes to become a game rather than merely encouraging valuable posts. |
Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24007017)
Huh? That post shot several holes in the idea. That's why it was informative!
... |
I didn't read the whole thread so am unclear on the exact system being suggested here; our system only allows a member to like a post, and later unlike (take their like away) a post. Posts cannot be 'voted down', meaning 'dislikes' being tallied publicly. Members on moderation (postings reviewed by moderation) can still access the like system. Members on temporary or permanent suspension (access to the site as a posting member removed) cannot access the like system.
There is a 'like tally' which floats at the top right of each thread, showing the number of likes that posts in a particular thread have received. What I find interesting is, generally like FT, hardly anyone uses the "Rate this thread" feature (the star system). In our case we didn't have a debate period prior to the system starting. It simply showed up one day. We have a much smaller forum, only about .38MM members and about 5.2MM posts, and don't have the large management structure that FT has. IMO, input and discussion can be helpful in such matters. If FT were to implement such a system, my vote would be for an anonymous " ^:td:" type system similar to that of youtube and other sites. |
Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24006505)
In short, I don't regard the limited scope trial as off the table just because some coding is needed. If it's the right answer we should pursue it.
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Do people on FT use the "rate this thread" feature? The few times I clicked there, it felt like I was entering a black hole with no indication of how the stars would be used. Moreover, I've never been able to find a star rating (derived from this feature) for any threads on FT. [I'm not counting TalkMail or the "thread of the month" stuff that started appearing pretty recently.]
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 24007527)
Do people on FT use the "rate this thread" feature? The few times I clicked there, it felt like I was entering a black hole with no indication of how the stars would be used. Moreover, I've never been able to find a star rating (derived from this feature) for any threads on FT. [I'm not counting TalkMail or the "thread of the month" stuff that started appearing pretty recently.]
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Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24007584)
IIRC the stars only appear after 5 or more ratings. Since almost nobody uses the feature, no threads show ratings.
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Originally Posted by nsx
(Post 24007584)
IIRC the stars only appear after 5 or more ratings. Since almost nobody uses the feature, no threads show ratings.
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Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 24007702)
If no one is using the thread ratings feature, can't one infer that people wouldn't use the post "rating" feature?
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 24007749)
Where do they appear? I've never noticed a single thread with a star rating on FT.
Has anyone thought about what happens to "like" indicators when a post is edited after someone likes a post? ;) |
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 24008016)
Right below where you choose (sort of in the upper left corner of this thread) which page in this thread you want to read there is a pull down for "rate thread".
Has anyone thought about what happens to "like" indicators when a post is edited after someone likes a post? ;) |
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 24008135)
Thanks but I know where a person can rate a thread--in fact, I rated this one within the last hour to verify whether the function was still available and then I tried to rate it again as a test--but my question is where one can see what a thread's rating is, for the few threads that have at least five ratings? I've never yet discovered a rated thread on FT but I haven't hunted systematically.
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As someone who has spent as much time on Milepoint as on Flyertalk, I will say that one of the things I miss most on FT is the lack of a like button. There have been hundreds of times that I've wished FT had this simple option. I feel it would be a GREAT addition to FT and would help make this a friendlier, more positive place.
i hope to see it here soon. |
Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 24007702)
If no one is using the thread ratings feature, can't one infer that people wouldn't use the post "rating" feature?
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So what happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
There is room for mischievous and misleading behavior if the "likes" don't disappear upon a post being edited for content. |
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 24010811)
So what happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
There is room for mischievous and misleading behavior if the "likes" don't disappear upon a post being edited for content. |
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 24011436)
What/who determines whether the editing, possibly done in multiple steps, of a post affects its "content"? It would be an incredible amount of work for mods to examine this and I'm not aware of automated software capabilities that would consistently be accurate.
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Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 24011907)
If a post is edited to correct spelling, does that count?
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