Covid19: Swiss refunds after cancellation
Aug 9, 2020, 5:18 am
#631
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MEX
Programs: AC E75K
Posts: 4,171
Article (in German) that might be of interest to my fellow sufferers in this thread: German corporations lobbying against advanced payment for airline tickets as a result of their frustrations with LH's approach to Covid refunds. Since the article is in German only, I'm also linking to the English A.net discussion of it.
Aug 10, 2020, 4:15 am
#632
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Munich, Algarve, Sussex or S.F Bay Area
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, A3*Gold, AA Plat, HH Gold, IHG Plat Amb, Marriott Plat
Posts: 4,164
We have seen that you cannot trust the airline to follow simple laws and so such legislation becomes necessary. The existing model is fine as long as it is correctly followed. Lufthansa and a few other have shown that they do not do this. Of course, the more immediate way to solve the problem might be to strengthen the National Enforcement Bodies of EC261/2004 so that these are truly independent and with powers to punish airlines who do not follow the laws.
I would propose that an airline unjustly withholding repayment due or giving false information to avoid or delay payment should subsequently be punished by having to pay twice the amount. Yes, they will kick and scream about this "forcing" them to increase fares, but in the end it is a competitive market and we will see. EU261 is a cost of doing business. So is having to repay a passenger when you cancel his flight. And the law says within 7 days. Lufthansa still has close to 1.8 Billion Euros in their account which proves they are not adhering to this.
I would propose that an airline unjustly withholding repayment due or giving false information to avoid or delay payment should subsequently be punished by having to pay twice the amount. Yes, they will kick and scream about this "forcing" them to increase fares, but in the end it is a competitive market and we will see. EU261 is a cost of doing business. So is having to repay a passenger when you cancel his flight. And the law says within 7 days. Lufthansa still has close to 1.8 Billion Euros in their account which proves they are not adhering to this.
Aug 11, 2020, 7:34 am
#634
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 4,783
I would propose that an airline unjustly withholding repayment due or giving false information to avoid or delay payment should subsequently be punished by having to pay twice the amount.
When we talk about article 7 compensation claims (before Covid-19) -> My assumption is that only 10% of eligible passengers are trying to claim that money.
The airlines then manages to successfully fob off 90% of these 10% (either by ignoring claims, giving false excuses or simply providing no reliable channel to claim the money).
So in the end only 1% of eligible passengers are willing to fight for it - and may report it to the national enforcement body. If the airline then has to pay the double amount to this 1%, it won't make a big change to the airline.
Aug 12, 2020, 12:21 am
#635
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 17,008
Aug 12, 2020, 11:33 am
#636
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 19
It's hard to know at what point to initiate a chargeback. I'm looking at the best part of £6,500 for 3 business class tickets CDG to AKL (out on 26 July). Flight was cancelled and I called and requested refund on 12 June. Had email about further cancellations in the sequence so I called again on 29 June to be told that the cancellation and refund request hadn't been processed properly but would be now. Radio silence since then.
Credit card is UK Amex Gold. Would like to cancel the card this month.
Any tips?
Credit card is UK Amex Gold. Would like to cancel the card this month.
Any tips?
Last edited by Tudway; Aug 12, 2020 at 11:33 am Reason: clarity
Aug 12, 2020, 12:39 pm
#637
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 42,982
It's hard to know at what point to initiate a chargeback. I'm looking at the best part of £6,500 for 3 business class tickets CDG to AKL (out on 26 July). Flight was cancelled and I called and requested refund on 12 June. Had email about further cancellations in the sequence so I called again on 29 June to be told that the cancellation and refund request hadn't been processed properly but would be now. Radio silence since then.
Credit card is UK Amex Gold. Would like to cancel the card this month.
Any tips?
Credit card is UK Amex Gold. Would like to cancel the card this month.
Any tips?
Aug 14, 2020, 1:05 am
#639
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: GVA
Programs: A3 *G, LX *G, AF *S
Posts: 761
Update: called again to claim refund of my very first flight that was cancelled in March. Had called already end of March and demanded refund, and got Facebook messenger confirmation that the refund is in process in May.
Now the agent tells me: ok, I will start the refund process for this flight.
When I told him the above, he said he cannot see this in the system.
Great...
Now the agent tells me: ok, I will start the refund process for this flight.
When I told him the above, he said he cannot see this in the system.
Great...
Aug 14, 2020, 8:52 am
#641
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MEX
Programs: AC E75K
Posts: 4,171
For those who have followed my saga, I'm pleased to report that 4 months and 4 days after my original departure date, the €1,683.64 I paid just returned to my credit card.
Those who know my situation may recall that it became extra complicated because I bought the ticket from Expedia France (and I don't speak French) + I made the mistake of going the chargeback route + I closed my US credit card account after receiving the temporary credit because I moved from the US to Europe, resulting in the ticket going into 'suspended' status. So getting all this sorted required countless international phone calls, hours and hours of hold music, hoping for Expedia agents that spoke English, and several re-initiations of the refund request due to the ticket status issue. At one point, I had basically written this money off because a Swiss agent told me that my ticket had been being flagged for fraud so a refund would not be possible.
So for everyone else still suffering, have faith! If my f'd up situation ultimately worked out, I'm confident yours will, too!
PS: Thanks to FX changes, I ended up making a $100 through this mess. Haha...
Those who know my situation may recall that it became extra complicated because I bought the ticket from Expedia France (and I don't speak French) + I made the mistake of going the chargeback route + I closed my US credit card account after receiving the temporary credit because I moved from the US to Europe, resulting in the ticket going into 'suspended' status. So getting all this sorted required countless international phone calls, hours and hours of hold music, hoping for Expedia agents that spoke English, and several re-initiations of the refund request due to the ticket status issue. At one point, I had basically written this money off because a Swiss agent told me that my ticket had been being flagged for fraud so a refund would not be possible.
So for everyone else still suffering, have faith! If my f'd up situation ultimately worked out, I'm confident yours will, too!
PS: Thanks to FX changes, I ended up making a $100 through this mess. Haha...
For those who've followed my saga (summarized below), here's an update:
- Swiss informed me today (June 11) that they received Expedia's refund request on June 8 (I do not understand what happened between April 7 and June 8) and authorized the refund on June 9
- Expedia informed me today that they received Swiss's authorization and will now process the refund, which can take another 2 - 12 (?!) weeks (I questioned the need for such a long further delay, which they could not explain)
Heard back from Dr. Böse. Unfortunately can't help me because none of my segments touch Germany.
To summarize, here's where I'm at:
PS: Most perversely, I have another P fare intercontinental trip (OSL-ZRH-BKK) booked with Swiss in September. I don't even want to think about how to handle that one. (The above was for a CDG-ZRH-GRU-EZE P fare trip in April.)
To summarize, here's where I'm at:
- Swiss (operating carrier), after my insistence upon my EC261 rights, acknowledged on the phone I'm eligible for a refund but refused to put anything in writing to me. Told me a note has been made in my file so the OTA I purchased the ticket from should be able to submit a refund request.
- Expedia (OTA) confirmed my refund request was submitted on April 7 but I have not seen any $. Tired of waiting, I filed a merchant dispute through my credit card.
- Barclays (credit card issuer), granted and later reversed temporary credit after receiving documentation from LX convincing them I am not owed a refund because ticket is "non-refundable". Ready to throw in the towel on getting a refund, I called Swiss prepared to rebook to a future date.
- Swiss informed me ticket has been "suspended" due to suspicion of "potential fraudulent activity" and no rebooking would be possible. Advised me to call Expedia.
- Expedia informed me refund is still in process, disclaimed any knowledge of a "suspension", and advised that no rebooking would be possible until they hear back from Swiss re: the refund, either in the affirmative or negative.
- Meanwhile, FOCA (Swiss authorities) declined to pursue my case because the itinerary originates in France. Forwarded the case to French counterparts.
- DGAC (French authorities) sent a generic e-mail advising that "The DGAC does not provide individual follow-up to the reports sent to it. The action of the DGAC is also independent of the resolution of individual requests for compensation and reimbursement from airlines." (excuse the Google translation.)
- Contacted two lawyers who have both declined to take up my case.
PS: Most perversely, I have another P fare intercontinental trip (OSL-ZRH-BKK) booked with Swiss in September. I don't even want to think about how to handle that one. (The above was for a CDG-ZRH-GRU-EZE P fare trip in April.)
Aug 15, 2020, 12:58 am
#642
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 19
Hello [Tudway], I am truly sorry for the delay with the refund. After checking your booking, I'm glad to inform you that your refund has been processed today for all 3 tickets. The amount may take some time to reflect in your account. Thank you very much for your patience thus far. If you need anything else, please feel free to contact us again. Kind regards, [Xxxxxxxxxxx].
So, now I'll wait a week and see...
Aug 15, 2020, 11:46 am
#644
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MEX
Programs: AC E75K
Posts: 4,171
It was reversed a few weeks later when Swiss provided their BS response via their merchant bank that my ticket was non-refundable and my credit card issuing bank (Barclays) / network (Visa) accepted it as justification for why I wasn't due a refund.
Aug 16, 2020, 5:26 am
#645
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 19
Well, I don't use Twitter, but used Messenger to chase. This was the response, in the small hours of Friday morning :
Hello [Tudway], I am truly sorry for the delay with the refund. After checking your booking, I'm glad to inform you that your refund has been processed today for all 3 tickets. The amount may take some time to reflect in your account. Thank you very much for your patience thus far. If you need anything else, please feel free to contact us again. Kind regards, [Xxxxxxxxxxx].
So, now I'll wait a week and see...
Hello [Tudway], I am truly sorry for the delay with the refund. After checking your booking, I'm glad to inform you that your refund has been processed today for all 3 tickets. The amount may take some time to reflect in your account. Thank you very much for your patience thus far. If you need anything else, please feel free to contact us again. Kind regards, [Xxxxxxxxxxx].
So, now I'll wait a week and see...