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#4516
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Stockholm
Programs: Various
Posts: 3,369
I wonder how they select people for these checks? Do they exclude some people(like obviously wealthy) or are there certain destinations they check?
As for legal standing I'm sure it's legal. The other way to do it is of course to surround the person you want to ask something so they can't get away except by hitting someone...
As for legal standing I'm sure it's legal. The other way to do it is of course to surround the person you want to ask something so they can't get away except by hitting someone...
#4517
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,186
I wonder how they select people for these checks? Do they exclude some people(like obviously wealthy) or are there certain destinations they check?
As for legal standing I'm sure it's legal. The other way to do it is of course to surround the person you want to ask something so they can't get away except by hitting someone...
As for legal standing I'm sure it's legal. The other way to do it is of course to surround the person you want to ask something so they can't get away except by hitting someone...
#4518
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Stockholm
Programs: Various
Posts: 3,369
Nope, its not legal. You cannot just intercept someone anywhere for no reason. Customs can stop you at a border or near a border (like in CPH) but for the purpose of checking if you violate customs rules. Danish police can ask you for your identity: https://danskelove.dk/retsplejeloven/750 , but not your CPR number itself. Some social worker cannot intercept random people and ask them for their CPR, or conversely, hold them back if they refuse to say anything.
The question is still open. If it's not legal to ask then why did someone do that and why did some people reply when they shouldn't?
#4519
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Join Date: Jul 2001
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Posts: 102,095
As someone who isn’t Danish nor a subject resident of Denmark, I am curious what they could do if I just dismiss the demand for a CPR number.
#4520
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I wonder how they select people for these checks? Do they exclude some people(like obviously wealthy) or are there certain destinations they check?
As for legal standing I'm sure it's legal. The other way to do it is of course to surround the person you want to ask something so they can't get away except by hitting someone...
As for legal standing I'm sure it's legal. The other way to do it is of course to surround the person you want to ask something so they can't get away except by hitting someone...
Last edited by GUWonder; Mar 10, 2018 at 6:17 am
#4521
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Portugal
Programs: *G, VS Silver, HH Diamond
Posts: 631
Where at CPH are Danish authorities asking Denmark residents for their CPR numbers to check them against social security recipient lists? From the following, it suggested it was taking place in or after baggage claim:
Social security fraud spot checks ongoing at Copenhagen Airport ? The Post
But since the aim has been primarily directed at non-Schengen flight passengers it would be interesting to know if most/all of those CPR number-tied checks aren’t done at passport control.
And are any of the non-Danish and non-residents of Denmark being asked for this information to be checked too at CPH?
Social security fraud spot checks ongoing at Copenhagen Airport ? The Post
But since the aim has been primarily directed at non-Schengen flight passengers it would be interesting to know if most/all of those CPR number-tied checks aren’t done at passport control.
And are any of the non-Danish and non-residents of Denmark being asked for this information to be checked too at CPH?
#4522
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
Posts: 21,171
This sounds horrifying. I didn't see anything on arrival the other day but I was coming in through Lisbon. Had to pick up luggage though... I'll be back through the UK in a couple weeks. Not sure how I'd react to someone demanding my CPR while I'm trying to leave an airport. My visa is only for a few more months... this just reeks of gross authoritarian control .
The reason for selecting non schengen (and most likely non EU) flights is that people could have been seeking employment within the EU,and that would be a perfectly good reason for being out of the country, free movement and all that. So being checked on a UK arrival is not likely.
#4523
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I don't know if it is gross authoritarian control. The over arching point is to check whether people report themselves as being on vacation when they are. Your employer would also object if you forget to tell that you are on vacation rather than working If they found 21 people in one day of checking, there might be a point to carrying out these checks.
The reason for selecting non schengen (and most likely non EU) flights is that people could have been seeking employment within the EU,and that would be a perfectly good reason for being out of the country, free movement and all that. So being checked on a UK arrival is not likely.
The reason for selecting non schengen (and most likely non EU) flights is that people could have been seeking employment within the EU,and that would be a perfectly good reason for being out of the country, free movement and all that. So being checked on a UK arrival is not likely.
I am very curious to know the targeting approach being used by the Danish authorities in these checks. My bet is that most flight passenger traffic in the current quarter from CPH to warm weather EU islands have not been going on such flights and back seeking work at the warm-weather EU island destination.
Are they targeting charter package tourist flights from warm and hot weather places to CPH? Those flights may be the richest targets, whether from Spanish islands or non-EU Thailand or other warm places.
Last edited by GUWonder; Mar 10, 2018 at 1:47 am
#4524
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
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Huge numbers of people living in the EU seek employment opportunities outside of the EU too. And we both ought to know that merely being a resident of Denmark doesn’t necessarily make the person able to work in another EU country beside where they have residency. Lots of residents of one EU country can’t just legally start work in every other EU country beside that which granted them residency without jumping through some hoops (if even able or allowed to jump through the hoops to do so in the here and now).
I am very curious to know the targeting approach being used by the Danish authorities in these checks. My bet is that most flight passenger traffic in the current quarter from CPH to warm weather EU islands have not been going on such flights and back seeking work at the warm-weather EU island destination.
Are they targetting charter package tourist flights from warm and hot weather places to CPH? Those flights may be the richest targets.
Of course people can be on vacation in the EU, it can just make the burden of proof more difficult hence, I guess, the targeting of non EU destinations. On the other hand people can also seek employment outside the EU and need to travel for that, but under the flow of their benefits the would need to report this before going
If a person is not a recipient of public unemployment benefits in Denmark, the check has zero relevance to them.
#4525
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What they are checking for is recipients of unemployment benefits not have registered that they are om vacation. Like anyone else they have a right to take vacation, but it may influence who is footing the costs for their benefits, and also a maximum of 5 weeks of paid vacation.
Of course people can be on vacation in the EU, it can just make the burden of proof more difficult hence, I guess, the targeting of non EU destinations. On the other hand people can also seek employment outside the EU and need to travel for that, but under the flow of their benefits the would need to report this before going
If a person is not a recipient of public unemployment benefits in Denmark, the check has zero relevance to them.
Of course people can be on vacation in the EU, it can just make the burden of proof more difficult hence, I guess, the targeting of non EU destinations. On the other hand people can also seek employment outside the EU and need to travel for that, but under the flow of their benefits the would need to report this before going
If a person is not a recipient of public unemployment benefits in Denmark, the check has zero relevance to them.
I know what the proponents of this action claim they are doing by way of this action at CPH, but it still strikes me as being a dog and pony show with a dog whistle of sort, especially as this is anything but a highly effective approach for anything but PR purposes.
The burden of proof to show social security benefits misuse should rest upon the state and be the same regardless of intra-EU international travel or not. Given intra-EU cooperation is more of a given than cooperation beyond the EU, hunting after travelers coming from beyond the EU/Schengen area seems to be of at least as questionable effectiveness as international intra-EU travel, no less so as the travelers can claim to be doing the same thing as those traveling internationally within the EU.
The checks have more than zero relevance to people using CPH, including people like me who have no claim history to any Danish unemployment benefits. Absent evidence of wrongdoing, people being targeted in a law enforcement fishing expedition at CPH is a concern even for those of us not using Danish unemployment benefits. If I’m asked for a CPR at CPH, who is going to ask and where? And what’s the consequence for people like me telling those asking for it to go pound sand when asked for a CPR?
CPH has become a massive mess for travel between the Schengen and non-Schengen area within the past couple of years, and any governmental law enforcement dragnet/fishing expedition action that further slows down CPH passengers is not welcome by me.
Last edited by GUWonder; Mar 10, 2018 at 4:43 am
#4526
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
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Posts: 21,171
I know what the proponents of this action claim they are doing by way of this action at CPH, but it still strikes me as being a dog and pony show with a dog whistle of sort, especially as this is anything but a highly effective approach for anything but PR purposes.
The burden of proof to show social security benefits misuse should rest upon the state and be the same regardless of intra-EU international travel or not. Given intra-EU cooperation is more of a given than cooperation beyond the EU, hunting after travelers coming from beyond the EU/Schengen area seems to be of less questionable effectiveness, no less so as the travelers can claim to be doing the same thing as those traveling internationally within the EU.
The checks have more than zero relevance to people using CPH, including people like me who have no claim history to any Danish unemployment benefits. Absent evidence of wrongdoing, people being targeted in a law enforcement fishing expedition at CPH is a concern even for those of us not using Danish unemployment benefits. If I’m asked for a CPR at CPH, who is going to ask and where? And what’s the consequence for people like me telling those asking for it to go pound sand when asked for a CPR?
CPH has become a massive mess for travel between the Schengen and non-Schengen area within the past couple of years, and any governmental law enforcement action that further slows down CPH passengers is not welcome by me.
The burden of proof is indeed on the side of the authorities, and is basically the same. But it may just be easier to lift under certain circumstances, or at least be perceived to be easier to lift.
I am not sure what happens if/when people refuse to answer and asks them to take a hike. Can you test and update us? I don't have a stop in Copenhagen scheduled before July? The question is how to get in to their sights ....
#4527
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I come into CPH via passport control there a few more times this month and again next month, but I doubt that I will get asked since I’ve yet to observe anyone subjected to this there and my flight pattern is more or less static at this time of the year.
Perhaps this is a way to get people in Denmark to use Swedish airports more.
#4528
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: CPH
Posts: 106
That does seem like a quite strange approach. If some people would approch me at the airport and ask me for my CPR number I would be more than suspicious (except if they'd be police of course) - besides the legal point of view. Someone brought up the ticket inspectors on Swedish public transport, which I think is a different case: You are required to show a ticket when you use public transport, so if you don't have one you are clearly doing something wrong. But you are not required to give random people at the airport your CPR number - or am I wrong with that?
#4529
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
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That does seem like a quite strange approach. If some people would approch me at the airport and ask me for my CPR number I would be more than suspicious (except if they'd be police of course) - besides the legal point of view. Someone brought up the ticket inspectors on Swedish public transport, which I think is a different case: You are required to show a ticket when you use public transport, so if you don't have one you are clearly doing something wrong. But you are not required to give random people at the airport your CPR number - or am I wrong with that?
As for the legal rights, I don't not believe anyone but the police and customs officers can force you to ID yourself. The border checks are done by the police in Denmark. Even in the trains in Denmark I don't think they can force you to ID yourself, though they can detain you until the police comes.
#4530
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: CPH
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Posts: 11,095
I guess you might encounter the checker at the baggage belt for TK flights - we usually hear announcement telling us to have our passport ready for inspection after we landed at CPH.