Bernie2012

You know, sometimes people start to miss something once its gone, because they realize what they have lost.

I remember the time where we were flying with LH for 99DM to Munich for the Octoberfest and back. My problem with low cost is, that it does not pay off to fly low cost. If you add all the trouble and time, lack of connection options, rigid schedules, lack of alternative carriage, lack of competent customer support, you loose plenty of time you could use much more productive (and every h costs money, even your own time). So far from a business perspective.

Once you do not have your entire focus in shutteling between major hubs, you end up in areas where LCC offer nothing, because if they would, they would have to have a whole different organization and business model (IMO connecting flights, serving routes that are per se oftentimes not really profitable or even loss making, but those routes are very vital for the guys living and working at their end).

I call the LCC's vultures, because they cherry pick the most profitable routes, do have very little regard for their customers and are only in to make as much as possible money. So, you have on one hand extractionists which are squeezing cash out of main routes and on the other hand an important public/social/economical function which needs to be funded as well and lacks that cash now.

One example: I know folks which bought vacation and retirement homes in southern Europe and, besides pretty busy aircrafts, Ryan Air called off suddenly connections (probably mr. leary decided that they "not good enough for the bottom line" let's get rid of it), bad only if people organize their livelyhood around such connections and LH or SAS would have kept those routes for sure longer.

So, guess work, I am not so sure that those who prefer "full service - flyertalkers" are in a real minority. My company did spend last FY alone a little over 60k on my air travel, means I spend hours and hours on that stuff, tentative schedules, meetings and it makes me sick to my stomach seeing SAS developing like that. I did travel in the last years one time by Ryanair (because they had a direct route) never ever again.

nacho

Yes I completely agree with you. I agree with you to the extent that I don't see SK as a full service carrier since there was no free on board service for Y Pax. I actually picked LH and flew via FRA to get to LYS from CPH vs SK's direct flight. I also picked destinations that SK doesn't go to so I don't have to consider them at all.

When I'm looking for flights to DUS or TXL, I'm thinking SK as the LCC vs AB, as a Y pax I got snack and drinks on AB flight. To Mallorca I remembered I got a full meal free on my AB flight, what would I had gotten if I had flown with SK? At most 125 EB points each for the short legs.

I talked to an ex FA from Hong Kong Express (HK based LCC), she said, 'yes we heard about all the complaints but our flights were filled'. So from HK Express point of view, why would they care about their pax? Their flights got filled up, and that's what they want.

Even though I don't like SK, I don't want to see it go down because as long as they are there they create competition.

Bernie2012

You know what pops in my mind on this one?

The story that Goldman Sachs workers supposedly called their customers muppets.

I don't want to be named a muppet, I am not a muppet. It is this kind of world where these guys and their useless culture start to dominate our live.

And didn't AB start out as a LCC too? and do they have to struggle now with all the problems a "semi quasi probably full service airline" brings with it?

The reason why I am writing anything on SAS is because I am p*SSED and sad at the same time.

Cupart

Some figures relating to SAS if it has any interest:

Employees in total of the whole SAS Group:

2004 : 32'481
2005 : 26'825
2006 : 26'328
2007 : 20'784
2008 : 19'363
2009 : 17'371
2010 : 15'559
2011 : 15'142

Some of the fall in figures relates to the selling of sub-divisions within the SAS group.

* In 2004, the company flew to 146 destinations, in 2011 this had shrunk to 128

* In 2004, there were 1'450 daily scheduled departures on average, in 2011 this had gone down to 1'085

* In 2004, SAS transported 33 million passengers whereas in 2011 it had shrunk by 6 million to 27 million passengers.

* In 2004, SAS had 297 planes for use and in 2011 this had gone down to 215.

Data from SAS.dk

Cupart

Now in all fairness, I don't believe any of the LCC are running charities but are business' who want's to make a profit. I don't see anything wrong in that tbh. If this also means that a company like SAS is losing out on potential business who's fault is that? Surely it's not the LCC as they give the people what they want. This said, I don't fly LCC because I don't want to end up 3 hours bus ride from a major city if I need to fly somewhere at 03:45 in the morning, but I think its good that the segmentation that wants/needs this kind of option is available.

SAS has been way to arrogant and run by a business model that worked in the 80's when there was no such thing as privatized airlines, but national flag carriers heavily subsidized by their home countries scattered around Europe. Those days are so over I'm afraid and SAS has been sleeping (and/or controlled by the 854 individual unions - or whatever the number is) over the last decades.

Now reality has hit, and it has hit hard...

nacho

+1 Businesses are created to make $, and LCCs are there because there are demands for them.

I think the reality has been hitting them for the past 10 yrs or so.

I think the real problem is that SAS is trying to be both LCC (cutting most on board services for Y) and a full service airline at the same time. I remembered their snowflakes flight long time ago, and it didn't work out.

Cupart

Could not agree more with you.

With regards to snowflake, they did in deed have some strange destinations at the time (what I recall anyway), something that was doomed to fail from the very beginning.

What puzzles me is that no one pulled the emergency brakes decades before it came to this? I mean it's obvious what is going on around you so people in charge should re-think their position in the market OR at least the shareholders should question it...

nacho

Oh yes, when they first introduce 'snowflake' I thought they are talking about special flights to skiing destinations

I think the reason that they are still 'here' is because no one dares to pull the brakes.

oliver2002

DY and others have been cherry picking the SAS carcass since the last 5 years.

Which raises the question: why do NO/DK/SE stick to the ownership of SK? All EU states have shed their equity share of state carriers and let them float (or sink).

Which routes are really left in the network that provide essential services and have no competition from DY & co?

I was under the impression WF was a key element to that 'essential services bla bla' and now its being sold.

peocro

this is like the story of the frog in the pot: if you put it in the boiling water, the frog will jump out, but if you warm the water slowly, the frog will boil to death. the only thing to discuss here is how many EB points the frog has...

but seriously, the list of flag carriers that went belly up in the past years is dramatic. And we cannot just blame the intrinsic quality of the product: remember Swissair: great product in all classes, total financial disaster...twice!

oliver2002

As far as SR is concerned the general opinion is that they went belly up because they wanted to buy/merge/JV with a number of airlines: LO/SN/OS/TP etc. That is what killed them, not the cost of the product.

peocro

I remember. but the root cause, like with SAS is the captive market (CH or Scandinavia) is too small to sustain a "traditional" airline. Swissair tried the alliance or JV route, SAS tried some alliances and JV too (Spanair anyone?). And the first Swiss got rid of the alliances too, and it went down as well...

intuition

They have been trying to sell for years. It is just that no one wants to buy the last apple in the fruit-stand.

untouchab1e

Unfortunately, I am worried SAS wont make it through and I fear they will go down before the new year is upon us. All the pilots and cabin personnel must agree on the new plan on Sunday, and I am really not sure whether that will end well.

Does anyone know what would happen to our EBG Status and miles? Will they just disappear? Or will other airlines jump onboard and offer status matching?

nacho

I'm wondering about our miles as well. I'm struggling now whether I should just cash in all the miles by picking things up from the Eurobonus shop - at least something is better than nothing.