RichardMEL

The thoughts about DJ and *G type benefits are all quite good ones, but there are other things. I believe a Star membership costs the airline $10+ million/year to join - perhaps it is less for a regional member, but that's a huge chunk of cash and DJ may not see the benefit - given SQ serve about all the major domestic ports they like, and TG do most of them, NZ also (except ADL). I doubt it's a big revenue stream to shuttle Star pax to say CNS/OOL/ADL/HBA/LST when they likely wouldn't extract as much revenue from the deal as they could selling those seats themselves.

Additionally they'd have to pay to join a global CRS so that those other carriers could book the seats (I am not sure how the UA/DJ code works, but I bet it's not a simple system).

While they'd look like, say, VO flying single class around the place which could fit into Star reasonably, those paid F and C class pax might not be so happy to go from 1A on SQ at MEL into DJ's Y to connect to ADL/HBA/LST (etc).

I suppose LH could run DJ as a member of Miles & More, in the same way they took over LO (don't mention the war) and OS under that banner - that would eliminate a lot of cost, but I'm sure DJ would still have to pay some kind of a fee/pax or /seat to offer said points.

The other thing is that I just don't think it interests DJ - the whole global membership thing I doubt suits the culture and mentality over at DJ and they'd prob. resent feeling they owe this or that to some bozo in Frankfurt trying to impose silly Star rules on them, like x % of the fleet must be in a Star livery, etc.

Yes they could comp the blue room, but it would be a nightmare to administer things like free papers or drinks or preboards - remember DJ aims to be a quick turn around airline and all of that kind of stuff adds time, effort, etc not to mention there being a cost to all of that - eg: a newspaper, while a good idea might only be worth $1, but that's a cost a LCC doesn't need to bear and it would just push up their CASM to do it....

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a *A carrier in oz, but I don't think DJ is it.

Globaliser

Er, where does it say that FFs will never get upgrades? What's the point of them running an expensive FF upgrade system if they have botched it so badly that they will never have any premium seats for upgrades? As I read it, all that QF are saying is that they will allocate upgrades when they know what the confirmed paying load is. It's a bit like moving to an all-ODU system, only that it allows preference by tier rather than by how early you check in.

Ideally, an airline would run itself so that it sold almost all of its premium seats for premium fares. There would be a handful of premium seats available for redemption (whether by upgrade or outright award), but largely to soak up the statistical noise at the margins where you can't predict accurately how many paying bottoms there will be in the seats. As QF still expect to upgrade FFs, I would have said that they haven't reduced J capacity so much that they're failing to supply the demand. They just predict an increased demand for the product, and they think they will now deliver something closer to that ideal model.

Now, that's a business model which would have us FF addicts screaming in pain, but it doesn't mean that it's a bad model, or that QF have made a mistake. In fact, it's probably the best business model you could devise for the shareholders. And threats by us FF addicts sometimes have very little effect on some airlines, because they also know the proportion of their pax who fly in all cabins who simply cannot be bothered with any FF schemes - which includes, anecdotally, most of my friends who fly frequently for work purposes.

It might well have been a mistake if QF had seen increased demand for J, and then expanded the J cabin so much that many FFs get award UGs. That would basically be a symptom of over-capacity in J, perhaps badly damaging yield in a low-density cabin. Perhaps the same floor space can be used more profitably as high-density Y rather than low-density award J? (Remember that BA's most profitable cabin per square metre is W, not J.) It's not always the best decision to increase capacity simply because you see increased demand for a particular product.

RichardMEL

I would be interested to see Randy's thoughts on the changes if he was so involved with the changes 3 years ago - which the QF program badly needed I think.

globaliser makes good points. I think that we've all become so used to the systems as they previously were that we've missed this point - even the QF guy on the radio basically said they wanted to give top tier flyers the upgrades rather than the great unwashed.. you know, another way to have done that would simply have been to hold off clearing all waitlists till the day of departure - which is basically the same thing - at least they're being upfront about it this way.

Don't get me wrong - I think a lot of the changes, specially the redemption points rises are bad, but I definately see the point being made here.

thadocta

The thing that bemuses me is the fact that they still think this program is worth paying for to join (for AU and NZ residents at least). What a load of ......

Dave

NM

Regarding the availability of upgrades post May 25th, I think we may have to wait and see. As I see it, there are at least two issues that will contribute to upgrade availability on the long-haul flights that is where I seek them most.

1. If it works more like the ODU for domestic flights, we should see less complaints about upgrade waitlists not clearing but having lots of empty premium seats on the flight. The new policy certainly allows them to know how many spare seats are available and to fill them - if QF wants to play that way.

2. If the same U/Z seat availability exists throughout the time the flight is available for sale, and the load/revenue management system continues to release U/Z as loads are better known close to departure time (as they seem to do now at 2 weeks, 1 week, 3 days out etc), these seats will all be available for award seats and not for upgrade. I more award seats for the masses, including non-QF FF members such as AA, US, CO etc all aiming for premium cabin awards over the Pacific, and for way less points/miles cost that QF members seeking the same seats.

Currently, some of the available U/Z seats are going to QF FF members on paid fares and upgrading. With the new systems, these will no go to QF FF members as confirmed upgrades, but to QF and other program members for award flights. So upgrades will come from unsold seats rather than U/Z inventory.

So I will have to wait and see how this change will affect upgrade availability. Depending on how load/revenue management make U/Z available, we may see less awards and more upgrades, or it could be the other way around. And we could see more of the award seats going to those in other programs requiring considerably less "cost" to redeem them. Only time will tell.

Koru Flyer

The basic problem in my mind is not upgrades, different airlines have different systems, at least we do not have the Sk have a free for all where everyone is equal at the gate, no extra meals are loaded and it is a total mess.

I can also see the need to limit the number of award redemptions for people who use a business credit card for miles - although the likes of ANZ have done away with that anyway.

But they could have solved themselves a lot of flack by;

1. Having 2x and 3x multipliers for J and F travel. No point upping the miles without giving you high yield customers the ability to earn that travel.

2. Instead of 5,000 miles for every 450 SCs, make it 5,000 for the first in the year, 15,000 for the second, 30,000 for the third etc etc. Again to reward high yield pax and to give some point to continuing on QF after reaching WP. (also offsets high redemption).

3. Obviously QF feel that upgrades have (1) reduced the award pool so that they get hit for having no award seats and (2) they have a supply and demand problem that yield management win. But have WP upgrades clear at 48 hours and SG at 24 (similar to NZ) so that your high tier members know if they are travelling in F, J or whY. It makes a huge difference in what I carry and expect to do in each cabin. Surely at 48 hours they can have some hint to the yield, and begin to process.

Those three alone, stopped much of the annoyance, particulary of the high yield travellors who feel that they have lost everything without having anything in return.

Mark

Ken_YeahYeah

Hi everyone this is my first post.
I guess when your loyalty gets thrown in your face something needs to be done about it to express your objection.

I encourage all members that object to this system change to let qantas know. I rang qantas today and the telephone sales operator was very sympathetic and agreed with what i was saying. I asked her if there were many members that have mentioned this to her and she said that there were a LOT of calls today from upset members. I felt sorry for her as it wasn't her fault and wished her all the luck

She gave me the address of where you can write in
Qantas Customer Care
Level 5 Building A
203 Coward St
Mascot NSW 2020

or alternatively go to the Qantas homepage type "complains" under search
which will take you to this link below and click on email

http://www.qantas.com.au/needhelp/dy...cts/headOffice

I hope others will write in and ring head office of Qantas as i have and express their objections on +61 (2) 9691 3636 The more people tell them how they feel the more it will go up the chain and feedback will go to the policymakers

I have written an email to customer care at Qantas as follows:

A Frequent Flyer Programme is designed to reward loyalty. It seems that this new overhaul has not only stripped the loyalty of your gold and platinum frequent flyers but the more higher your status and loyalty the more the new points system is to your disadvantage and the more you will end up losing from the new system. Members that have accumulated points over the years have had their purchasing power of flights and upgrades slashed as the new system also retrospectively affects points that have already been accumulated. There are many members that fly Qantas for the benefits of accumulating points and status credits to obtain the benefits of upgrades and flights. These are the customers that will chose their flights not by price of the cheapest airline and airfare available in the market but are willing to pay a premium for the extras offered for loyalty. The customers loyalty to Qantas is represented by the cumulative available points and status credits available to obtain upgrades and flights. When these loyal members are told that the points that have been accumulated are not going to get you as far or be able to be used with the same value as before you are alienating many of your existing premium members. How do you expect the more frequent flyers to respond to this new overhaul with anything but disgust.

Qantas has made it a point that some benefits have increased, such as family members being able to pool points together. There you are creating a system that doesn't reward the loyal frequent flyer but the occasional flyer who will be able to pool points because they don’t fly as often to be able to get the points on their own so they need extra help to give them the reward. The premium flyers of gold and platinum are the flyers that continuously use qantas on a preferred basis multiple times and they are rewarded by penalising them for staying loyal to qantas by affected their past accumulated points by lessening the value in being able claim a reward that they were able to under the old reward system.

I know that there will be many gold and platinum members who find this very upsetting and will be looking at star alliance alternatives for international as well as virgin blue for domestic options where prices can be cheaper and lounges are available on a user pay system. The days where your premium members are willing to pay a higher airfare in favour of loyalty to qantas will seriously come under pressure. i have been told that the word around the lounges is very negative and many members are questioning how qantas has treated their premium loyal customers.

Woudn't it have made better sense to let the already accumulated points up to May 25 be able to be claimed at the old rates and any points accumulated after that at the new rates. By doing this you will lessen the disadvantage the years of loyalty your premium members have given to qantas by at least letting them keep the value of what they have already accumulated and rightfully deserved.

I'm sure Qantas will be getting many emails in response to this issue and with the way qantas is treating their FF customers i am not going to hold my breath for a response. But i do feel it is important that qantas knows how your members are feeling so that things can be looked at again and hopefully corrected as it would be a shame to destroy what i believe keeps the qantas icon and FF system one step ahead of the pack. I believe what you have done is a marketing and customer relations disaster and should be renamed the Qantas Disloyalty reward programme the less you fly the more benefits you will get to try and claim a reward.


Ken

d00t

Thanks Ken,

D :-: N has a point about it probably falling on deaf ears in another thread, but Im willing to try, after all.. won't know if you dont try!

I copy/pasted your letter and printed it out.. mailing out a couple today

tstsang

I saw the changes to Qantas program and I am quite angry ..... I have about 200000 points and I was going to plan to use all of it for my family/friends for HKG-SYD route Economy who could not afford to pay the ticket (I hardly use it myself). Originally it is 50000 points but now it is 60000 points return. So now I just about lost a ticket for no reason.

Anyway, if any of u experts can tell me the best way to use 30000 points (under the current system), and 50000 points? I just want to burn all those points before Qantas takes it away from me, assuming departing (and finally back to) Sydney.

I have to say that so far SQ KrisFlyer is very good to me. I am a SQ Silver but I have never flown SQ (I flew UA to Chicago and put it to SQ), and last year they gave me Silver even though I never flew them, and I did not fly enough miles for silver. But they said they appreciated my support last year in the midst of SARS. I redeemed SQ 25000 points from HKG-ICN with Asiana a few weeks ago, and they charged me nothing for my processing fee, and they called me three times everytime Asiana decided to change flight times. So I am very impressed with SQ and look forward to fly SQ to HKG in February .....

jaffa.oz

Hmmmm!!

I think i'll catch the train!

ozstamps

Virgin could also easily copy Southwest super successful and super simple FF scheme which AFAIK comprises one major bennie.

A free flight for each 10 paid flights. Incredibly simple, incredibly effective.

They also offer free drink coupons as well IIRC based on some formula.

Southwest is capitalised at MORE than the entire value of UA, AA, DL, CO and NW combined. They seem to keep things simple and smart.

Virgin is insane for not leaping in now offering SOME kind of deal to snag fairly regular domestic traveller IMHO. Almost no-one here flies Jetstar from what I have read unless in an emergency or no other choice. Why? No bennies whatever.

Real cost of such a scheme - near zero as they are capacity controlled if they wish.

If died-in-the-wool QF fliers here will not go near Jetstar, DJ have missed an incredibly valuable marketing edge.

GUWonder

I have only flown QF a few times but I will stop crediting flights or other partner activities to my QF account.

I suspect such policies/policy changes will incentivize people to fly the cheapest carrier on long-haul routes; and in my book, making your business into a more commoditized business (than it may already be) is not a good thing for the business.

I thought the BA program changes in the summer of 2003 were bad .... but this is up there too.

QF ExLurker

Actually it is the long haul segments of 5001-5800 miles which are penalised. e.g you could try SEA-LHR 4801 miles and SCs up 40% compared to old system, or SFO-ZRH 5841 same SCs as old system.

NM

Or how about the bus ?

Dave Noble

Bad NM, Naughty NM... you know that mentioning the b*s word is taboo

Dave