DL4EVR

I'm convinced that thegeneral just reads selected words of each response. Every time one of us TSA nay-sayers makes a valid statement countering something he said, there is no reply about it...

red456

2004 Sea-Tac Statistics
# 37 Airlines
# 6 Cargo-only cargo carriers
# 346,966 metric tons of air cargo
# 29 weekly nonstop flights to Asia
# 7 weekly nonstop flights to London#
# 78,904 people per day
# 28.8 million passengers per year
# 983 flights per day (approximately)
# 358,894 flights per year

http://www.enterpriseseattle.org/ind...d=20&Itemid=49

Who is living in a fantasy world?

breny

I have yet to see TheGeneral add anything productive to any discussion. He's not open to any debate or discourse, so why bother? It's wasted breath.

PaulKarl

The General sometimes makes a thought-provoking point.

More importantly, The General demonstrates that there are people in the United States -- a lot of them -- who believe that, because they are "clean-living" people with "nothing to hide," government intrusions are irrelevant. From their perspective at this exact moment, they are correct.

The problem with that line of thinking is that, if the government and law enforcement are left unchecked, sooner or later those with power get around to harassing you or outlawing something that you enjoy or infringing on a freedom you consider important . . . and then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Superguy

I think he's here for our entertainment.

FliesWay2Much

...or a "Suicide Poster" from a TSA or LEO web site?

Superguy

A masochist at the very least.

MrAndy1369

I'm not taking any sides, but I just wanted to remind y'all that while maybe TheGeneral has opinions that are contrary to most of ours, he is entilied to his own opinion, so we definitely can disagree with him, but let's not put him down. If you feel bothered by his reasoning, then you can ignore him, but let's not personally attack him. The same goes to TheGeneral - if you don't like someone's opinion, you can definitely argue against it, but don't do it in a rude or put-down way. Just a suggestion, that's all.

That said, I'm not stopping flying because if I did, the terrorists would have won. Simple as that.

doober

I have a sib who thinks like thegeneral; he uses the very same words when describing himself: "clean living" and "nothing to hide" that PaulKarl used. (I should note that he also has a certain personality disorder that encompasses the above beliefs.) He would often say that if he were accused by law enforcement of doing some illegal he would just tell them the truth and they would let him go.

That was until 2 things happened:

1. The TSA tried to make an "example" of him at a checkpoint because they thought they saw something in his carryon, kept demanding to know what it was and tore the whole bag apart looking for something that wasn't there. He missed his flight.

2. He had a "friend" who accused him of something and it cost him thousands of dollars to prove he didn't do that of which he was accused.

True, he had "nothing to hide" in either case but he got taught a hard lesson - and he still doesn't understand why it happened.

thegeneral

I'm flattered at everyone's attention. Perhaps we can make this entire site about me and the places I'm going to fly. That would be peachy.

"I must be missing something. I've been through Seatac any number of times and found security lines out the door. How do you manage 20 seconds?"

There is a status lineup at each and every place where you go through security. That cuts it down. There have been times where there are large lineups there but that was mostly around the time that there were major changes in regulations.

"More importantly, The General demonstrates that there are people in the United States -- a lot of them -- who believe that, because they are "clean-living" people with "nothing to hide," government intrusions are irrelevant. From their perspective at this exact moment, they are correct."

No, it's more a matter that when I travel, I'm busy, have 100 things to do and will most likely get no sleep all week. It's America, I have stuff to do. The few minutes it takes me to go through security really has no bearing on how much I can or cannot accomplish during the week. It's not that I think that I don't care about intrusions, I just don't think this one is of any consequence.

Spend your time working with EFF or write your congressperson about the DMCA and how it should be repealed if you don't like people impinging on your freedom. This country has far bigger issues when it comes to freedom (such as a political process that doesn't really work that well) than me having to take on and off my shoes should I make the decision to fly.

I mean, I have to stop my car every time I see a red octagon, many movies suck because of our ratings system, Howard Stern is off regular radio, you can go to war and die at 18, but not have a beer until you're 21, our lawmakers use discretionary spending keep themselves in office, our money references the deity of one specific religious group on our currency and major networks can't even show a breast on television. You're seriously choosing take off shoes as your issue to champion here?

PS. I forgot to add execute an innocent person or two to the list above. Up until not too long ago I could have put execute children there, but the supreme court "legislated from the bench" and noted that maybe that wasn't such a swell idea anymore.

Superguy

So where is your line? These "no consequences" keep creeping and that's the problem. It's much easier to take care of something when it's smaller before it's gets out of control.

False choice. These aren't mutually exclusive (though I agree that the DMCA really sucks). And yes, I'm a member of EFF.

But that's the problem. TSA is part of the poliitical process that doesn't work. It's damn near impossible to get off the no-fly list. Even with TSA's "redress" process, at best you get a letter which still doesn't promise you won't be harassed in the future. Proper channels for complaints don't work. Legitimate claims for theft and damaged good when TSA puts their "we were here paper in there" are denied and/or ignored. TSA doesn't comply properly with the Privacy Act of 1974. TSA's administrative searches often exceed their scope and can cause constitutional questions (ie is a bag check called for a pipe when no other prohibited item is in noticeable constitutional when the search was consented to for a limited scope?). The list goes on.

Taking off shoes isn't THE issue, but AN issue. Just probably the most outward manifestation of a much bigger problem.

Like you say later, this country has much bigger fish to fry. Iraq's a mess. We have violent crime happening every day that claims more lives that 9/11 did, etc. Is this REALLY something we should be wasting so much money on?

Not all laws are bad, nor are all laws good. Some make sense like the stop sign. Others like soldiers at 18 and booze at 21 maybe not so much. However, those are issues for you that others may not see as such a big deal. Does that mean that you're just a whiner and you should shut up because I think those issues are minor? I don't think so.

Strinking down bad laws isn't judicial legislation.

Super

Lumpy

Absolutely well-presented. Nothing to get your (patted-down) drawers in a knot about. Matter of perspective and perspicacity. Take murder, for example. Now, there's a real CRIME. SUCH a big crime that we oughta just kick out jaywalking. And illegally entering the country. And rape. And kidnapping. But MURDER, by gawrsh, there's a CRIME.

General's got a point. Just wonder where his list of "irritants" kicks out and is taken over by his list of "mebbie they's sumpin' TO this HERE..."

bbeeman

There's no doubt that these days I drive on some runs that I used to fly, routinely.

And some of it is the inconsistent and all too often rude screeners and general TSA idiocy. I'm a diabetic, so I have to travel with insulin and all the other stuff that goes with it. I've been yelled at at one terminal at SMF for not having the insulin in the freedom baggie, and at the other for doing so.

But, a significant part of it is crowded, filthy planes, rude cabin staff, and general 'don't give a damn' attitudes that have infected almost all airlines (in recent experience Southwest has been least damaged by this rot).

Life is too short to put up with either current airlines or TSA when there is any option. I wonder how much revenue the airlines are really losing?

Lumpy

Sadly, bbeeman, only you and I and an enlightened few others can see plainly that the emperor has no clothes.