I have a question, Phil. You state here that you are really unsure of what TSA policy is, that TSA presents conflicting information regarding policy, and let's just assume that's true. How is it then, that when another potential passenger comes and ask a question that you decide to answer if you state you don't really know what TSA policy is? Are you purposefully give out possible bad information, or are you simply content to give out answers that are guesses?

And I'll work on answering some of tour questions you post to me eariler in the thread. I may have time later today, but regardless I will get to them.

1. he refused to provide identification or provided information to the BDOs to identify himself (basically, we look up you ID at a central location)
2. yes, he did not provide information regarding his identity nor proivde his actual ID
3. no
4. i do not know - and thats a loaded question. But I expect nothing less from you. ^
5. why do you assume he was dangerous? and how do you know what he "uttered"? I gave a very brief description of an encounter that was actually somewhat lenghty considering other interactions at TDC. I gave a short version. Sorry if that upsets you.
6. considering I pay taxes too, that argument holds little weight with me. try again. But to answer you condescending question, flatter does not sway me in the performance of my job.

I would state that you ask such at particularly stupid question tell me you already had an answer to the question, and your fishing. So I will state this again, perhaps it would be best if you yourself ask your questions, write your own answers, and and I will sign my name to it, so that your happy.

7. I mistakenly thought that was self-evident. To me it does not make sense that someone would say "I will not show you my ID because government doe not have the right to ask for my "papers", but you can look it up online". We end up seeing the same document.

Please explain to me why it is not ok for the TSO at TDC to see you government ID, but another TSA employee to see it somewhere else?

8. Already answered in previous questions. Why ask the same question over and over again, albeit, using different words? What are you fishing for? Please be more straight-forward, and I will try to be too. Thanks

9. Define retaliation, please. As many here on this site use the word, they state a TSO does something against TSA policy to the passenger because the TSO is angry at them. Under that definition, I have never retaliated against anyone.

If you want to claim that by following TSA policy that I acted in retaliation, thats up to you. But then you also have to claim that is true of every TSO who does not allow a prohibited item through the checkpoint. In other words, if I stop someone from carrying a function chain-saw (true story) through the checkpoin, or a gun (true story), then I have "retaliated" against that person for enforcing TSA policy.

Besides, I wonder why you ask that question? It seems VERY clear to me you already decided your answer, and I believe your fishing again. Which again leads me to ask you to go ahead and answer you own questions so that you will be happy.

10. Loaded question. I do not believe anyone has a right to fly. A right to move about the country, yes, but to fly, nope. And our courts have state so, too. As far as I am concerned, I did not "infringe" upon anyones right.

But again, we are faced with the FACT that you have already decided upon an answer before I have given my answer, so I am given more proof that your fishing.

And if someone claims as you state, and they attempt to help us identify themselves, since we end up seeing their ID, yes, they can proceed through the checkpoin.

11. Providing ID or identity is federal regulation, which you well know. And as said by one expert regarding this topic, Robert Longley, "Federal regulations are the actual enforceable laws authorized by major legislation enacted by Congress."

If a person were to attempt to go through a TSA checkpoint and hide their identity, they COULD (not saying they would) be charged criminally (besides facing regulatory fines) with attempting to circumvent airport security. Even if you do not like it, or know about it, sorry and deal with it.

12. You ask a loaded question, and then try to force me to answer a certain way. Proof again you are fishing, and should answer you own questions.

Sorry, you asked me a question, and I did not get to dictate to you what questions you can ask or how you can ask those questions, so do NOT dictate to me how to answer.

He did not follow established TSA policy, and TSA has the discression to bar him entrance into the checkpoint. You can read about his here: http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav...documents.shtm

But specifically from that link: "Passengers whose identity cannot be verified by TSA may not be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint or onto an airplane."

But on to your loaded and silly question, I enforce many TSA policies. I do not allow certain LGAs through the checkpoin, nor knives, guns or other things. I have stopped people carrying guns before, yet I honestly did not think they would be a threat to the airline. My opinion of the matter counts for NOTHING. You seem to NOT want to understand this nor NOT want to accept this, for whatever reason.

There, I have answered all you questions. I will not play your game that you do here so often and keep answering them again, over and over. So post them if you have to, but all you have to do for my answers is to refer back to here. Thanks, and your werlcome!

Can you point me to these regulations in the C.F.R.?

I believe it's a Security Directive, if your asking which regulations require someone to show their ID.

That's the point.

And the Security Directive is SSI, I assume?

Yes it is SSI. But regardless, it is there. Personally, I would make it public, but then again you know I don't have that authority.

IOW "double secret probation".

Hmmm not really. TSA tells people on it's official site that presenting ID or providing information to identify yourself by another means is required, or you can be denied access through the checkpoint.

Interestingly enough, Gilmore argued that because the SD was secret, such secrecy deprived him of due process. The court rejected his claim, in part because notice is given many times you must provide your ID, which makes the SD not so secret.

If I simply decline to present an acceptable ID card will I be screened by alternative means or just denied screening altogether?

Depends. Would you provide information so that your identify could be verified? If you refuse, most likely yes, you will be denied access through the checkpoint.

But this is true of many TSA policy. If you bring a prohibited item, and refuse to abandon the item, or check it in, or give it to a friend outside the checkpoint, etc., you will also be refused passage through the checkpoint.

1. Q: Why didn't you allow the man past your barricade?
   A: he refused to provide identification or provided information to the BDOs to identify himself (basically, we look up you ID at a central location)
   I'll assume that you meant to say that the man refused to present identity credentials and he refused to identify himself to your BDOs. Please correct me if not. That's very different than what you told us before, which was that you refused to examine his boarding pass as soon as he declined to present credentials.
   
2. Q: Did the man violate any rules? If so, which ones? Where can we read them?
   A: yes, he did not provide information regarding his identity nor proivde his actual ID
   
   Again, that's not what you said before. And where can we read these rules? If we can't, then how can we know what the rule is -- just trust you?
   
3. Q: Did you bar the man from proceeding because he did not tell you his ID was misplaced or stolen?
   A: no
   
   
   Okay, I think we all agree that you barred him from proceeding. So why did you bar him from proceeding? My understanding is that if he had told you his ID was misplaced or stolen, you would have continued with your procedures instead of barring him from proceeding. No?
   
4. Q: Do you think that his choosing not to show you what you wanted but were not entitled to see -- his identity credentials -- indicated that he would present a danger to other passengers on his flight?
   A: i do not know - and thats a loaded question. But I expect nothing less from you. ^
   
   I don't believe you. I think you do know if you think that indicated he would present a danger. But regardless, please think about it for a moment. Now that you've formed an opinion, do you think so, or not?
   
5. Q: Did the fact that he did not utter the words "I lost it" indicate that he was dangerous?
   
   A: why do you assume he was dangerous? and how do you know what he "uttered"?
   
   
   I don't assume that he was dangerous. In fact, I assume that he was not dangerous. You prevented him from boarding his flight. Did you think he was dangerous? Your actions suggest that you did.
   
   I'm only assuming that he did not utter the words "I lost it" in regards to his ID. I assume this because you said that he willfully refused to present it. But let's stop guessing. Did he tell you that he lost it?
   
6. Q: Had he -- metaphorically speaking -- bent over and kissed your feet, would you have continued to perform the procedure we pay you to perform instead of restricting the man's movement?
   
   A: considering I pay taxes too, that argument holds little weight with me. try again. But to answer you condescending question, flatter does not sway me in the performance of my job.
   
   It's not an argument; it's a question, and the question was not "does flattery sway you in the performance of your job?" You did not answer the yes/no question I posed. I'll phrase it a little differently, since you seem to have been distracted by the implications. Hypothetically, had the man been sufficiently meek instead of boldly exerting his right to restrain from presenting identity credentials to you, would you have continued performing the checkpoint procedure instead of refusing to examine the man's boarding pass? (This question doesn't make much sense if we go with your second description of the situation instead of the first.)
   
7. Q: You did not describe the man refusing to undergo the identity verification process TSA claims its staff use when people do not present identity credentials, only him refusing to present identity credentials. Does it seem from this statement that I read yours correctly?
   
   A: I mistakenly thought that was self-evident.
   
   It was not.
   
   To me it does not make sense that someone would say "I will not show you my ID because government doe not have the right to ask for my "papers", but you can look it up online".
   
   Whether you think that makes sense or not is not relevant here. Regardless, no one has even suggested that such was said.
   
   You did not describe the man refusing to undergo the identity verification process TSA claims its staff use when people do not present identity credentials, only him refusing to present identity credentials. Does it seem from this statement that I read yours correctly?
   
   Please explain to me why it is not ok for the TSO at TDC to see you government ID, but another TSA employee to see it somewhere else?
   
   
   I can't explain that, and I didn't say that it was.
   
8. Q: Was the man required to present those credentials to you in order to go on about his business?
   
   A: Already answered in previous questions.
   
   
   You haven't answered it. Was he required to or not? Previously, you told us that you refused to examine his boarding pass immediately upon his refusal to present credentials.
   
9. Q: Did you retaliate by prohibiting the man from crossing your barricade simply because his stated reason for not presenting identity credentials was his desire not to do so?
   
   A: Define retaliation, please.
   
   To take revenge for a perceived wrong.
   
   I have never [done something to a passenger, in violation of TSA policy, because I was angry at that passenger].
   
   Thanks.
   
   I wonder why you ask that question?
   
   I suspect that you were annoyed by the man's choice not to show ID, and that because of this, you refused to examine his boarding pass. I can't know for sure, though. so I asked you.
   
   It seems VERY clear to me you already decided your answer, and I believe your fishing again.
   
   An answer to a question I ask you is not something I decide. In this case, only you know the answer, so I asked you.
   
   [Please] go ahead and answer you own questions so that you will be happy.
   
   I wasn't there, and I'm not allowed to read your rules. I can't answer.
   
10. Q: Had the situation been exactly the same, except for three words out of the man's mouth -- "I lost it" or "it was stolen" -- would you still have immediately infringed upon his right to travel?
    
    A: I do not believe anyone has a right to fly. A right to move about the country, yes, but to fly, nope. And our courts have state so, too. As far as I am concerned, I did not "infringe" upon anyones right.
    
11. Q: Was there any specific security threat or any unlawful behavior in that case?
    
    A: Providing ID or identity is federal regulation
    
    That doesn't sound like a regulation to me. Did you mean to say that passengers are required by federal regulation to present identity credentials or to identify themselves? If so, please cite the regulation.
    
    If a person were to attempt to go through a TSA checkpoint and hide their identity, they COULD (not saying they would) be charged criminally (besides facing regulatory fines) with attempting to circumvent airport security.
    
    
    Anyone can be charged with anything. What's your point? Did you mean to say that it is unlawful to hide one's identity while attempting to cross a TSA airport barricade? If so, could you please define "hide one's identity"?
    
12. Q: What, if anything, made you think this man was such a threat to transportation security that you should bar him from walking through the airport to the terminal from which he presumably arranged to be transported? Please don't reply by citing internal procedures you won't allow us to read, just tell us why you -- TSA -- felt it was appropriate to infringe upon that man's right to move from one place to another.
    
    A: He did not follow established TSA policy, and TSA has the discression to bar him entrance into the checkpoint.
    
    You did not answer the question. I'll break it apart for you: Did you think this man was such a threat to transportation security that you should bar him from walking through the airport to the terminal from which he presumably arranged to be transported? If so, what made you think that?
    
    But on to your loaded and silly question, I enforce many TSA policies.
    
    I didn't ask what you do. I didn't whose policies you enforce. I didn't ask if you enforce few or many policies.
    
    My opinion of the matter counts for NOTHING.
    
    
    That's very humble of you, but it doesn't matter. I didn't suggest that your opinion is significant. I asked what, if anything, made you think that the man was dangerous enough to stop him from heading to the terminal.
    
    I have answered all you questions.
    
    No, you have not. You answered some of them, but I've very clearly indicated which ones you did not answer.

No, I stated that we cannot know for sure what TSA policy is. I'm not really unsure; I have some clues.

You do. For example, your Web page says that something is required, then in the next paragraph, describes alternatives.

No.

Anyone can be denied access. What's important is the circumstances under which someone will be denied such. Please, please, please, just publish the rules we have to follow.

Hey I'd love too. But SSI can only be disclosed after approval by the Administrator of TSA (Gale and soon to be Mr. Pistole) or the Secretary of Transportation.

I'd do it myself, but I'd like to keep my job thank you.

Though... maybe I'll post something on IdeaFactory (our internal suggestion website) asking to clarify the ID page.

Can you truly not find better work than TSA?

Refer back to my answers. Everythin has been answered.

You may not like the answer, or understand my answers, but don't lie and say I haven't answered.

While your posting on IdeaFactory why not post something explaining that secret laws are contrary to the spirit of America. If TSA employees were capable of experiencing shame, they would have no part in enforcing any rule, regulation or law that the public is forbidden to see.

Hmm our court system has basically said the rule regarding ID is not so secret (gilmore) as plenty of information is post about it already.