What is the beginning of the process then?

Why don't you walk us through the process since I am apparently uninformed.

No that would not be the correct response.

Why can TSA not do this? So far the courts have rule TSA can refuse someone passage through the checkpoint. And specifically in gilmore the court speciffically said such regulations does not violate due process.

Let's make sure I understand what your no means.

If I have ID and refuse to show TSA my ID I will be refused alternative screening.

Is that correct?

You can have ID, refuse to show it, and at this point a decision CAN NOT be made. I honestly do not understand why you do not get this.

At this point the TSO/STSO MUST try to verify your identity another way. If you comply, and help us ATTEMPT to identify yourself (does not have to be successful), you may be allowed through the checkpoint, and may receive additional screening.

However, after first refusing to show ID, AND if you refuse to help identify yourself by other means, at this point, and ONLY at this point, will you be denied access.

I have no idea how i can make this answer more clear. I am not avoiding answering you, despite what you claim. I honestly have no idea how to be more specific.

What I hear you saying is if I decline to show ID that I have on my person I will not be screened. That seems to conflict with the Gilmore ruling.

A couple of excepts:

Certainly seems as confirmed by your statements that TSA is operating outside of recognized court rulings.

What you seem to keep missing is that I never said I would not help TSA to attempt to identify myself. I just asked a simple question which you seem unable to give a straight honest answer to.

That question once again is; If I refuse to show ID that I do have on my person will alternative screening be offered?

Don't read anything else into the question.

No, gilmore speciffically dealt with that SD. As of yet there has not been a legal challenger to the current policy.

And gilmore did NOT say that TSA HAD to follow these options.

Currently, TSA is not in violation of any court order.

I'm not reading anything else into the question, but you are asking for an answer that TSA SOP does not cover.

So based upon just your question, and nothing else, additional screening would not be offered, but neither would the option to go throug the checkpoint nor would you be denied. Again, your asking a question for which SOP does NOT cover.

It's sort of like if you ask "can I bring LGAs trough the checkpoint", and that's all the information you provide. I couldn't answer that question without more info.

So a SD is inconvenient for TSA so they just change it to suit TSA needs and go around court decisions? What happened to spirit of the law?

So is TSA policy to not offer screening if a person has ID on their person and refuses to show TSA that ID?

OK, I get to the TDC and s/he asks for my ID and I say I have ID but do not wish to show it to TSA. Exactly what happens at that point?

Why would the SD be an inconvience for TSA? TSA won gilmore. But the ID policy was bound to change, because of things like secure flight.

And no that's not policy.

Previous rulings had stated that a person had the choice of not showing ID if they agreed to enhanced screening.

Is that the case today?

The ruling simply stated what SOP said at the time. It was not a court order.

But to clarify, previous policy and what the court pointed out was:

1. Show ID and go through checkpoint.
2. Do not show ID an receive additional screening.
3. Do not fly

current policy is:

1. Show ID and fly
2. Provide alternate means of identity and go through possible additional screening
3. Do not fly


I do not know what a court would rule on the new policy.

I DO know due process is not violated, because that part of TSA policy has not changed, and in gilmore the court ruled due process was not violated.

Is it possible a court will strike down current TSA policy? Perhaps. But it's also possible our courts will uphold TSA policy. If you know the answer, you are more wise than I.

I certainly don't know the answer and I still am not really sure of what happens if I just decline to show any ID document to TSA.

I am hoping that some form of alternative screening would commence but that point is still unclear to my mind.

I truly feel it is a simple question and thought the answer would be as simple.

Seems another case of TSA making something simple impossible to understand and implement.

I think it is pretty simple. You will be asked other means to identify yourself. If you refuse that (which actually makes sense to me - which is why eariler I said it was self-evident to me) then you will be denied access.

The picture is starting to come together. So let us refine the image.

If I have a form of ID on my person and simply state that I do not wish to show ID will the process of alternative screening begin?

Are you being willfully dense? It's been pretty clear for most of the thread that if you are unwilling to show physical ID, then the TSA, if you choose to cooperate and provide information, will attempt to verify your identity in other ways.

It would be helpful if you would define what you mean by "alternative screening."

Willfully dense? I don't think so but thanks for the vote of confidence.

The question is what happens in two different scenarios.

1, have ID but decline to show ID to TSA.
2, do not have ID in any form to show to TSA.

You would have to ask TSA what alternative screening is since TSA operates in the dark like a bunch of criminals.

Of course the third question is why does identity matter if TSA properly screens for WEI since that is the only function they are authorized to do.

Edit to add:

When an employee of any work group cannot articulate a policy in an easily understood manner then I feel something is wrong with the policy, not the employee.

I am not finding fault with SATTSO, but I have to wonder how any such policy can be carried out in the field when it seems so convoluted that it cannot be described in relatively simple terms.