Originally Posted by
pmocek
Unanswered questions from this thread for SATTSO:
- Q: Why didn't you allow the man past your barricade?
A: he refused to provide identification or provided information to the BDOs to identify himself (basically, we look up you ID at a central location)
I'll assume that you meant to say that the man refused to present identity credentials and he refused to identify himself to your BDOs. Please correct me if not. That's very different than what you told us before, which was that you refused to examine his boarding pass as soon as he declined to present credentials.
- Q: Did the man violate any rules? If so, which ones? Where can we read them?
A: yes, he did not provide information regarding his identity nor proivde his actual ID
Again, that's not what you said before. And where can we read these rules? If we can't, then how can we know what the rule is -- just trust you?
- Q: Did you bar the man from proceeding because he did not tell you his ID was misplaced or stolen?
A: no
Okay, I think we all agree that you barred him from proceeding. So why did you bar him from proceeding? My understanding is that if he had told you his ID was misplaced or stolen, you would have continued with your procedures instead of barring him from proceeding. No?
- Q: Do you think that his choosing not to show you what you wanted but were not entitled to see -- his identity credentials -- indicated that he would present a danger to other passengers on his flight?
A: i do not know - and thats a loaded question. But I expect nothing less from you. ^
I don't believe you. I think you do know if you think that indicated he would present a danger. But regardless, please think about it for a moment. Now that you've formed an opinion, do you think so, or not?
- Q: Did the fact that he did not utter the words "I lost it" indicate that he was dangerous?
A: why do you assume he was dangerous? and how do you know what he "uttered"?
I don't assume that he was dangerous. In fact, I assume that he was not dangerous. You prevented him from boarding his flight. Did you think he was dangerous? Your actions suggest that you did.
I'm only assuming that he did not utter the words "I lost it" in regards to his ID. I assume this because you said that he willfully refused to present it. But let's stop guessing. Did he tell you that he lost it?
- Q: Had he -- metaphorically speaking -- bent over and kissed your feet, would you have continued to perform the procedure we pay you to perform instead of restricting the man's movement?
A: considering I pay taxes too, that argument holds little weight with me. try again. But to answer you condescending question, flatter does not sway me in the performance of my job.
It's not an argument; it's a question, and the question was not "does flattery sway you in the performance of your job?" You did not answer the yes/no question I posed. I'll phrase it a little differently, since you seem to have been distracted by the implications. Hypothetically, had the man been sufficiently meek instead of boldly exerting his right to restrain from presenting identity credentials to you, would you have continued performing the checkpoint procedure instead of refusing to examine the man's boarding pass? (This question doesn't make much sense if we go with your second description of the situation instead of the first.)
- Q: You did not describe the man refusing to undergo the identity verification process TSA claims its staff use when people do not present identity credentials, only him refusing to present identity credentials. Does it seem from this statement that I read yours correctly?
A: I mistakenly thought that was self-evident.
It was not.
To me it does not make sense that someone would say "I will not show you my ID because government doe not have the right to ask for my "papers", but you can look it up online".
Whether you think that makes sense or not is not relevant here. Regardless, no one has even suggested that such was said.
You did not describe the man refusing to undergo the identity verification process TSA claims its staff use when people do not present identity credentials, only him refusing to present identity credentials. Does it seem from this statement that I read yours correctly?
Please explain to me why it is not ok for the TSO at TDC to see you government ID, but another TSA employee to see it somewhere else?
I can't explain that, and I didn't say that it was.
- Q: Was the man required to present those credentials to you in order to go on about his business?
A: Already answered in previous questions.
You haven't answered it. Was he required to or not? Previously, you told us that you refused to examine his boarding pass immediately upon his refusal to present credentials.
- Q: Did you retaliate by prohibiting the man from crossing your barricade simply because his stated reason for not presenting identity credentials was his desire not to do so?
A: Define retaliation, please.
To take revenge for a perceived wrong.
I have never [done something to a passenger, in violation of TSA policy, because I was angry at that passenger].
Thanks.
I wonder why you ask that question?
I suspect that you were annoyed by the man's choice not to show ID, and that because of this, you refused to examine his boarding pass. I can't know for sure, though. so I asked you.
It seems VERY clear to me you already decided your answer, and I believe your fishing again.
An answer to a question I ask you is not something I decide. In this case, only you know the answer, so I asked you.
[Please] go ahead and answer you own questions so that you will be happy.
I wasn't there, and I'm not allowed to read your rules. I can't answer.
- Q: Had the situation been exactly the same, except for three words out of the man's mouth -- "I lost it" or "it was stolen" -- would you still have immediately infringed upon his right to travel?
A: I do not believe anyone has a right to fly. A right to move about the country, yes, but to fly, nope. And our courts have state so, too. As far as I am concerned, I did not "infringe" upon anyones right.
- Q: Was there any specific security threat or any unlawful behavior in that case?
A: Providing ID or identity is federal regulation
That doesn't sound like a regulation to me. Did you mean to say that passengers are required by federal regulation to present identity credentials or to identify themselves? If so, please cite the regulation.
If a person were to attempt to go through a TSA checkpoint and hide their identity, they COULD (not saying they would) be charged criminally (besides facing regulatory fines) with attempting to circumvent airport security.
Anyone can be charged with anything. What's your point? Did you mean to say that it is unlawful to hide one's identity while attempting to cross a TSA airport barricade? If so, could you please define "hide one's identity"?
- Q: What, if anything, made you think this man was such a threat to transportation security that you should bar him from walking through the airport to the terminal from which he presumably arranged to be transported? Please don't reply by citing internal procedures you won't allow us to read, just tell us why you -- TSA -- felt it was appropriate to infringe upon that man's right to move from one place to another.
A: He did not follow established TSA policy, and TSA has the discression to bar him entrance into the checkpoint.
You did not answer the question. I'll break it apart for you: Did you think this man was such a threat to transportation security that you should bar him from walking through the airport to the terminal from which he presumably arranged to be transported? If so, what made you think that?
But on to your loaded and silly question, I enforce many TSA policies.
I didn't ask what you do. I didn't whose policies you enforce. I didn't ask if you enforce few or many policies.
My opinion of the matter counts for NOTHING.
That's very humble of you, but it doesn't matter. I didn't suggest that your opinion is significant. I asked what, if anything, made you think that the man was dangerous enough to stop him from heading to the terminal.
I have answered all you questions.
No, you have not. You answered some of them, but I've very clearly indicated which ones you did not answer.
Originally Posted by
SATTSO
You state here that you are really unsure of what TSA policy is
No, I stated that we cannot know for sure what TSA policy is. I'm not really unsure; I have some clues.
that TSA presents conflicting information regarding policy
You do. For example, your Web page says that something is required, then in the next paragraph, describes alternatives.
Are you purposefully give out possible bad information, or are you simply content to give out answers that are guesses?
No.
Originally Posted by
SATTSO
Hmmm not really. TSA tells people on it's official site that presenting ID or providing information to identify yourself by another means is required, or you can be denied access through the checkpoint.
Anyone can be denied access. What's important is the circumstances under which someone will be denied such. Please, please, please, just publish the rules we have to follow.