wildcatlh

Now that's a first post. Hear hear, and welcome to FlyerTalk.

doober

Hear, hear!

Although it might be against TOS, I would urge the mods to post this in its own thread this 4th of July weekend.

polonius

Yes, well, as I've said here many times -- we need to decide if we want to be a society that is willing to sacrifice a few lives in order to preserve its freedoms, or one that is to willing to sacrifice its freedoms in order to save a few lives.

Being half-Polish, I know that my family and other Polish families didn't hesitate to sacrifice 20% of their population rather than submit to the Nazis. When Americans are willing to lose 60 million of their population rather than endure the WBI, gate searches, secret warrants, "renditions," Guantanamo, the Patriot Act, the DHS, the TSA and all the rest of it, then Al-Qaeda will have lost the battle, and not before. Right now, they are pumping their fists in the air in victory with every bottle of water confiscated, and every dollar spent on the WBI.

AINITFUNNY

A people who have decided there is nothing worth dying for
will find themselves with nothing left worth living for.

LuvAirFrance

Yeh, let's sacrifice a few lives. Other people's. So easy to talk about that. Truth is you are freer now than people have ever been. But it is still not enough.

Tom M.

I guess you are against using our military to go after Al-Qaeda and those who target us?
Or are those lives OK to sacrifice?

InkUnderNails

I have thought about this long and hard. I have made a conscious decision that I will sacrifice my comfort, my time and my wealth and even put my life at risk to protect the liberties that others have sacrificed to preserve. I may never be asked to make that ultimate sacrifice, but I have prepared myself for the time if it should come. If others want to voluntarily join me, that is fine. I am not sacrificing others lives.

We are not freer than we have ever been. Our nation at its founding set out with principles that provided liberty for its citizens. Was the implementation perfect? Of course not. Institutions set up by men are always affected by the limitations and imperfections of the people involved. It was established to provide a framework for liberty that has at times been successful and at times have not.

We have abandoned and forfeited many of those liberties:

We have accepted restrictions on political speech before an election.
We allow the government to actively determine the limits of religious expression.
We have accepted restriction on self-defense in the name of safety.
We have accepted that government can take our property without compensation for safety.
We have accepted that our government can forcibly take our property for a non-public use.
We allow ourselves to not be secure in our persons, papers and effects without a warrant in the name of safety.
We can not grow food for our own consumption or the consumption of our livestock without government permission.
We can not drain or fill a pond fully contained on our own property without government permission.
We can not enter into a private business agreements or exchanges with others persons without government oversight and permission.
We can not choose to hire labor that is most profitable for our business at market rates.
We can not sell our labor to private employers without government control of wage and hours.
We can not choose to purchase individual policies of insurance for our property, life or health without government control.

The Declaration of Independence and its passing is celebrated tomorrow. It famously noted for the phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." This goal was the hoped effect of implementation of the the Constitution of the United States. But the real reason for the Declaration was to throw off the bonds of tyrannical government. I suggest that a rereading is in order as many of the charges leveled against the king, have parallels today. If you are interested, it is here.

erictank

And those of us who HAVE volunteered to (at least potentially) sacrifice our own lives? What of all of us military veterans, many of us having served in wartime in combat zones, who have looked at what's being forced on us and have decided that it's a travesty, that we served to protect the exact OPPOSITE of the crap being foisted on the American people? Do you plan to be quite so dismissive of our views, as well? I mean, we only VOLUNTEERED to be called on for the sacrifices you hold in such high esteem, we didn't actually DIE, so our opinions don't matter either, right?

I didn't spend 6 years in the Navy, including multiple visits to the Persian Gulf on an aircraft carrier, so that DHS could install kiddie-porn generators in the airports. And you could wire the graves of the Founding Fathers and satisfy the power needs of the country, they're spinning so hard.

No, LAF - it's *NEVER* enough.

polonius

Freer than people ever have been? On what planet? I can remember boarding planes with no security at all, just a smile and a "welcome aboard". AND you could smoke!

Let's not forget the closing words of that document, in which the signatories pledged their "lives,...fortunes... and sacred honour." Once that document was dropped in the post with King George's address on it, there were only two possible endings for them -- victory, or the gallows. These were not people who would have tolerated the liquids ban.

Global_Hi_Flyer

Likewise. My computer wallpaper is a picture my dad took of me on the ramp outside an AA DC-6 back in 1964 (at either LGA or PVD). Aside from the fact that one couldn't get on the ramp at most airports today, taking such a picture - especially at LGA or JFK - would land you in a world of hurt with both the PA Police and American Airlines.

Oh, and I want my Jarts back, too.

Somewhere in that era the government decided it had to protect us from everything, even our own judgement. That mentality has led us to where we are today with airport security.

birdstrike

You should be. I do this, but not in that order, on every flight I can.

BA, in FIRST, hands out lovely PJs to the passengers. As soon as possible after boarding, I disrobe, put on my supplied PJs, deploy the fully flat bed, and nosh all the way over the pond.

If -properly- run, the TSA should be providing the PJs, fully flat beds, champers and personal service that we, as citizens, deserve.

A properly deployed National Butler Service would discreetly pack away any offending items, then deliver them unharmed at the destination.

I fear that you will never in your life understand just how sad this post is.