Those of you who don't mind nude scans -- where DO you draw the line?
Jan 4, 2010, 9:22 am
#136
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Originally Posted by barfeld2
As the very least, no one has the right to ask that other people risk their lives or the sake of his own modesty.
Ummm (and this depends on full body scans or strip searches or proctoscope exams or whatever being in fact effective, but we have to presume that in order to address the principle you seem to be stating)...I don't think that liberal democracy, with its principle of the liberties of the individual being foremost, takes that principle to mean that one person may exercise his liberties in a mannger that endangers another.
Maybe I don't have an absolute right to demand that you give up your modesty to increase my safety; but neither, I think, do you have an absolute right to demand that I give up my safety to preserve your modesty. And since we're all flying on the same aircraft, we have to strike a community- based, not an individually-based, tradeoff between the two values.
As the very least, no one has the right to ask that other people risk their lives or the sake of his own modesty.
Ummm (and this depends on full body scans or strip searches or proctoscope exams or whatever being in fact effective, but we have to presume that in order to address the principle you seem to be stating)...I don't think that liberal democracy, with its principle of the liberties of the individual being foremost, takes that principle to mean that one person may exercise his liberties in a mannger that endangers another.
Maybe I don't have an absolute right to demand that you give up your modesty to increase my safety; but neither, I think, do you have an absolute right to demand that I give up my safety to preserve your modesty. And since we're all flying on the same aircraft, we have to strike a community- based, not an individually-based, tradeoff between the two values.
Jan 4, 2010, 9:32 am
#137
Join Date: May 2009
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Gold
Posts: 398
An anonymous display on a computer screen and living in a residence with transparent walls, doors and roof are identical. Yeah. Right. Got it.
Jan 4, 2010, 9:42 am
#138
Join Date: May 2009
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Gold
Posts: 398
Many of us are not concerned with exposure of the genitals, but rather (or in addition) with the unknown risk of long-term, repeated exposure to radiation, known to be carcinogenic, or radio waves, of uncertain health risk. This is particularly of concern regarding children, pregnant women, and those who have undergone cancer therapy, as they may be more susceptible.
And we are asked to undergo this increased risk for a procedure which does not detect explosives, which is, after all, the main concern. If there is an alarm, it will still need to be resolved by other means, as WBI is not the definitive answer, despite what TSA and other "authorities" say.
And we are asked to undergo this increased risk for a procedure which does not detect explosives, which is, after all, the main concern. If there is an alarm, it will still need to be resolved by other means, as WBI is not the definitive answer, despite what TSA and other "authorities" say.
Jan 4, 2010, 10:15 am
#139
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: LHR/SEA/YVR
Programs: BAEC G/*O E
Posts: 921
My take on that: let those who mind new scanners keep going through the regular "take you belts-shoes-coat-wristwatch-off" thing with a pat down after the detector); but please-please let me do this nude-o-scope (or whatever you chosse to call it) and avoid this hassle. I've been through these machines in Moscow and it makes the whole security thing a breeze.
I am more than happy to leave those who find these new scanners humiliating to the airport queues, as long as they leave me my liberty to shortcut security lines by going through this immoral and uncivilised process.
I am more than happy to leave those who find these new scanners humiliating to the airport queues, as long as they leave me my liberty to shortcut security lines by going through this immoral and uncivilised process.
Jan 4, 2010, 10:23 am
#140
Suspended
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
My take on that: let those who mind new scanners keep going through the regular "take you belts-shoes-coat-wristwatch-off" thing with a pat down after the detector); but please-please let me do this nude-o-scope (or whatever you chosse to call it) and avoid this hassle. I've been through these machines in Moscow and it makes the whole security thing a breeze.
I am more than happy to leave those who find these new scanners humiliating to the airport queues, as long as they leave me my liberty to shortcut security lines by going through this immoral and uncivilised process.
I am more than happy to leave those who find these new scanners humiliating to the airport queues, as long as they leave me my liberty to shortcut security lines by going through this immoral and uncivilised process.
Jan 4, 2010, 10:24 am
#141
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
My take on that: let those who mind new scanners keep going through the regular "take you belts-shoes-coat-wristwatch-off" thing with a pat down after the detector); but please-please let me do this nude-o-scope (or whatever you chosse to call it) and avoid this hassle. I've been through these machines in Moscow and it makes the whole security thing a breeze.
I am more than happy to leave those who find these new scanners humiliating to the airport queues, as long as they leave me my liberty to shortcut security lines by going through this immoral and uncivilised process.
I am more than happy to leave those who find these new scanners humiliating to the airport queues, as long as they leave me my liberty to shortcut security lines by going through this immoral and uncivilised process.
Who is to say the strip-search machine and follow-ups to flags raised by the strip-search machine searches won't slow the lines down compared to the current practice of the metal detector process with or without a pat-down?
Sooner or later, this will be like things went with Delta Airlines' "best of both" combination of the Delta SkyMiles with Northwest WorldPerks "loyalty" programs: the worst of both for the most.
Jan 4, 2010, 10:36 am
#142
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: LHR/SEA/YVR
Programs: BAEC G/*O E
Posts: 921
No one told me that - this is my experience from going through these machines in Russia; and I wonder who told you one would still be required to take shoes off if/when new scanners have been installed?
Jan 4, 2010, 10:38 am
#143
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Programs: SW Rapid Rewards, Hilton Honors, Marriott, Avis First
Posts: 4,831
Jan 4, 2010, 10:40 am
#144
Suspended
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
Ask anyone whose been through one here in the states - everything comes off and your personal items are out of your sight while you are in the scanner. Perfect opportunity for theft.
Jan 4, 2010, 10:53 am
#145
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: CLT
Programs: Choice Hotels/FFOCUS
Posts: 7,256
Jan 4, 2010, 10:54 am
#146
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
.... and if things "work" like they did at EWR within the past 24 hours, they won't even be able to find the "violator" using camera footage after a "violation" has taken place.
Jan 4, 2010, 10:56 am
#147
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Jan 4, 2010, 11:32 am
#149
Join Date: May 2009
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Gold
Posts: 398
Let me turn that question around to you: Ah, so you do have a desire for modesty on your terms, but won't allow the same for others. We have religious freedom. But what if it's part of someone's religion to sacrifice dogs and cats on Sunday? Religious freedom is not absolute. In the same way, the right to modesty is not absolute. If you are mistaken for a big time drug dealer the cops might do a strip search on you, you protestations of modesty be damned. The challenge in a free society such as ours is to balance rights when they come into conflict. How would YOU handle it if a man going through security was too modest to take off his hat or a woman was too modest to remove her hijab?
Jan 4, 2010, 11:35 am
#150
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 250
They ARE SLICK (and slimy). At SEA-TAC I was selected for a secondary pat down and while I was getting that, and unable to watch my stuff TSA went INTO MY WALLET and took PART of the cash ($200) leaving me to (immediately after the pat down) glance in the wallet, see cash and assume it was all there. After I got to the gate, I sat down and checked that I indeed had everything I came with and discovered the theft. I had just counted it for the trip before leaving the house and there was NO opportunity for it to have been taken anywhere else.
YOU SHOULD NOT BE REQUIRED TO SURRENDER YOUR MONEY AND CREDIT CARDS TO THESE unaccountable PEOPLE'S "CONTROL AND CARE", EVEN FOR A MINUTE. There is no valid excuse for that.
YOU SHOULD NOT BE REQUIRED TO SURRENDER YOUR MONEY AND CREDIT CARDS TO THESE unaccountable PEOPLE'S "CONTROL AND CARE", EVEN FOR A MINUTE. There is no valid excuse for that.